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21:02:22 <str4d> Alright, I'm going to go ahead and start the meeting.
21:02:29 <str4d> 0) Say hi
21:02:29 <str4d> 1) Feeds progress
21:02:29 <str4d> 2) JUnit hackfest summary
21:02:29 <str4d> 3) discussion of Syndie progress and where we are going with that
21:02:29 <str4d> 4) Suggestions for future hackfests
21:02:29 <str4d> 5) PR manager nomination
21:02:32 <str4d> 6) 0.9.4 progress
21:02:35 <str4d> 7) Website revamp
21:02:38 <str4d> 0) Say hi
21:02:38 <str4d> Hi!
21:03:06 <orion> Hi!
21:03:49 <lillith> hi :)
21:06:50 <str4d> Anyone else?
21:08:58 <str4d> The "hi"s have it.
21:09:05 <str4d> 1) Feeds progress
21:09:35 <str4d> This will be short.
21:10:51 <str4d> The feeds work is getting close, but I won't have it ready for 0.9.5 unfortunately - too many little things that need tidying up (user notifications etc.) as well as some not-so-little things (re-working the /home design, specifically how categories are presented to the user).
21:11:55 <dg> woah
21:11:58 <dg> I goth ere in time
21:11:58 <str4d> And I'd rather push it to the next release than release it in its current state, since I want users to have a good first impression of it =)
21:12:05 <dg> I thought I'd missed you guys
21:12:15 <str4d> dg: we started an hour late, FYI =P
21:12:15 <orion> dg: Nope, still here.
21:12:23 <dg> \o
21:13:38 <str4d> So, any feedback, comments and suggestions for the feeds work would be greatly appreciated, but it's not urgently required before the 0.9.5 release.
21:14:37 <str4d> Anyone have any points to raise on this topic before we move on?
21:14:53 <orion> No.
21:15:51 <dg> I don't, if zzz is here, he might?
21:17:23 <str4d> We can come back to this at the end if necessary.
21:17:26 <str4d> Next:
21:17:26 <str4d> 2) JUnit hackfest summary
21:17:57 <str4d> Anyone else here who participated? zzz? topiltzin? KillYourTV?
21:18:55 <zzz> yup, went well, the 4 of us all hacked away, and zab fought to the end until they all passed. First time in years, or maybe ever.
21:19:22 <str4d> Kudos to zab for that.
21:20:04 <str4d> And as a result we now have a Jenkins service run by kytv which will hopefully keep us in check ^_^
21:21:47 <str4d> Next step there is to expand our code coverage (which Jenkins also monitors) with moar tests.
21:22:06 <str4d> Not much else to say here, so:
21:22:09 <iRelay> <welterde@freenode> kytv: you running sonar as well?
21:22:14 <str4d> 3) discussion of Syndie progress and where we are going with that
21:23:08 <str4d> zzz and eche|on have started the Syndie hackfest - how bad is it looking? =P
21:23:39 <zzz> going well, need more people to test, code, or make suggestions, but we have several dozen checkins in the last few days
21:24:01 <zzz> suggest people try the latest version in mtn, they will find a lot of fixes
21:24:32 * str4d plans to pull the branch in the next day or so and have a look
21:24:32 <zzz> but the point here is to recruit somebody to work on it steadily. It needs a lot of work
21:25:50 <str4d> One of the points I recall from the TODO was a big-picture question: where are we heading/do we want to go with Syndie?
21:27:11 <dg> As in? Development wise? Popularity wise?
21:27:54 <str4d> Both probably.
21:28:29 <str4d> What needs to happen to reach its original goals? What were those goals? Do they still make sense?
21:29:13 <str4d> This sort of thing would be good to outline on the Syndie bounty.
21:29:23 <dg> Popularity wise: get Syndie at least considered alongside "anonymous publishing" tools (I don't know if there even are any apart from Freenet?)
21:29:35 <dg> If we get to that point, we're doing well
21:29:49 <str4d> (Since then people can look at the bounty and actually get a feel for what is required)
21:29:52 <dg> The goals are on the site, I believe. At least the use cases which sort of explained..
21:30:19 <str4d> Useful links for reviewing the original goals:
21:30:22 <str4d> http://www.i2p2.i2p/status-2006-09-12.html
21:30:22 <str4d> http://www.i2p2.i2p/status-2006-10-03.html
21:30:29 <iRelay> Title: I2P Status Notes for 2006-09-12 - I2P (at www.i2p2.i2p)
21:30:33 <iRelay> Title: I2P Status Notes for 2006-10-03 - I2P (at www.i2p2.i2p)
21:31:36 <str4d> dg: then it would be good to review the Syndie site and update it.
21:31:58 <zzz> in the hackfest we're just fixing obvious problems. But hopefully the fest will attract new users and devs with ideas.
21:33:16 <str4d> PR will help in that respect (which we will get to shortly).
21:34:21 <str4d> Would it be a good idea to create a ticket for reviewing the Syndie docs/goals/bounty etc. to ensure they are current?
21:35:07 <dg> I'd say so
21:36:37 <str4d> dg: could you do that? =)
21:37:05 * dg nods
21:37:08 <str4d> And does anyone have anything else to add to this topic at present?
21:37:11 <str4d> Thanks
21:39:35 <orion> no.
21:41:07 <str4d> zzz: any other comments before we move on?
21:41:34 <str4d> Aside from "Get hacking on Syndie NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!" ;P
21:43:41 <str4d> Oh - why is syndie.i2p not up?
21:43:44 <str4d> welterde?
21:43:51 <str4d> (Or whoever runs it)
21:43:57 <str4d> syndie.i2p2.de is up.
21:44:48 * KillYourTV guesses it was jrandom's.
21:45:31 <str4d> Mmm, probably. In which case it would be worth setting up syndie.i2p2.i2p
21:45:58 <str4d> (I recall seeing syndie.i2p in the I2P docs, so that needs changing at some point)
21:46:41 <KillYourTV> I don't think syndie has an eepsite...(yet)
21:47:16 <str4d> It has a clearnet site...
21:48:00 <KillYourTV> hell...the most recently downloads are from 2007, other than my Debian packages or the plugin versions.
21:48:03 <KillYourTV> I don't think many (other than mosfet, darrob, echelon, and I) have cared about syndie for a long time (which is why there's the hackfest!!!!!!!11111onetyelven)
21:49:54 <str4d> Okay, meeting will move on for now, we can revisit this if needed.
21:50:05 <str4d> 4) Suggestions for future hackfests
21:51:17 <KillYourTV> weltende: not familiar with sonar but i'll look into it. maybe I can handle that too...
21:51:32 <str4d> So, what other hackfest ideas do we have?
21:56:17 <RN-Droid> me too!
21:56:36 <str4d> <str4d> So, what other hackfest ideas do we have?
21:58:32 <str4d> Things that we have on the boiler at present:
21:58:35 <str4d> I2P itself
21:58:35 <str4d> Syndie
21:58:42 <str4d> Android port
21:58:49 <str4d> Website
21:59:54 <str4d> Anything within those that might be deserving of a hackfest?
22:00:05 <str4d> (Anything I've missed?)
22:01:14 <orion> str4d: Is the protocol spec something hackable?
22:07:25 <str4d> orion: you mean the docs for it?
22:07:48 <str4d> If the documentation is unclear then that is something worth considering.
22:08:03 <str4d> Especially as we now have someone trying to use it to replicate a compatible I2P =)
22:08:34 <orion> str4d: I meant actually modifying the protocol.
22:08:45 <str4d> orion: that, not so much.
22:08:53 <str4d> zzz can elaborate more.
22:09:09 <str4d> It depends on what protocol you are referring to though.
22:10:00 <orion> Upgrading crypto mainly.
22:10:00 <str4d> Existing protocols (SSU, NTCP, I2CP, I2NP etc.) should ideally be backwards compatible, so a hackfest on them is probably counter-productive as any changes need to be carefully considered.
22:10:35 <str4d> Ah yes. That is certainly something worth considering, especially before you get too far along with i2pcpp
22:10:54 <str4d> Again, probably not hackfest-worthy, but it's something that we should probably dedicate some time to.
22:11:05 <orion> ok
22:11:23 <dg> btw http://trac.i2p2.i2p/ticket/840
22:11:27 <iRelay> Title: #840 (Review Syndie site) – I2P (at trac.i2p2.i2p)
22:11:47 * str4d tables the motion that the next meeting (or maybe the one after) be a crypto review meeting.
22:12:39 <dg> I agree
22:12:50 <str4d> o/
22:13:10 <orion> /o
22:13:41 <str4d> zzz? KillYourTV? welterde?
22:14:29 <str4d> We'll want it to be a meeting that the people with the most knowledge of I2P's crypto can attend (so definitely zzz and zab)
22:16:32 <iRelay> <welterde@freenode> str4d: ah.. crypto.. I'll be there.. when? *fetches calender*
22:17:02 <dg> Next week?
22:17:05 <dg> Same time?
22:17:48 <str4d> welterde, I'm proposing either the next meeting or the one after (so Tues Jan 15 or 22, 20:00 UTC) but if another time suits you/zzz/zab/etc better...
22:22:57 * str4d has just emailed zab to ask about his availability.
22:24:08 <str4d> s/just emailed zab/is attempting to email zab (and waiting on postman's SMTP to respond >_<)
22:26:17 * str4d waits for welterde to finish checking his calender
22:26:32 <iRelay> <welterde@freenode> str4d: already noted ;)
22:27:04 <str4d> Okay, so the currently-proposed time is Tues Jan 15, 20:00 UTC.
22:27:23 * str4d will make a zzz.i2p post about it
22:27:26 <str4d> Next:
22:27:29 <str4d> 5) PR manager nomination
22:27:36 <str4d> orion: you're up!
22:27:47 <str4d> (Finally ^_^)
22:29:26 <orion> yay
22:32:30 <orion> What is the role of the PR manager position?
22:32:33 <orion> formally.
22:33:00 <str4d> "PR manager: press contact, manages public relations and affairs"
22:33:10 <str4d> (from /team)
22:34:51 <str4d> So the person who gets I2P known, handles interview/article requests, organizes I2P appearances... that sort of thing, I'd imaging.
22:34:54 <orion> I can be a press contact. I like speaking in front of public audiences.
22:34:57 <str4d> imagine*
22:35:39 <dg> It needs to be someone who can IRL.
22:35:50 <orion> I can meet press/media IRL.
22:35:53 <dg> Also, general i2p public face for things we need would be helpful..
22:35:53 <orion> I don't mind that.
22:36:03 <dg> (GSoC for one, if Google demand)
22:36:17 <str4d> dg: good point there.
22:36:48 <str4d> I know that mentors don't have to be public, but Google does require a single person to be the main point of contact.
22:36:48 <orion> Interviews, all that stuff sounds good. The one thing I am not good at though is media stuff (making flyers, etc)
22:37:36 <orion> I don't mind being a main point of contact -- organizing I2P appearances I can do, so long as you guys tell me about them. Hell, if they're in the area I can go IRL.
22:37:39 <str4d> orion: making flyers etc. isn't technically part of the job - it would be to organize flyers etc. getting made (which themselves would be done by a designer)
22:37:58 <orion> Ahh
22:38:13 <str4d> eche already has a competition running to get some leaflets, banners etc. designed.
22:38:20 <orion> Ok.
22:38:23 <str4d> So e.g. the PR manager could promote that competition.
22:38:30 <str4d> (To get a wider variety of entries)
22:38:55 <dg> For me, it's showing people that i2p is more than a few people hiding with no face at all
22:39:01 <dg> However you wish to do that
22:39:08 <dg> Talks, interviews, whatever, it's all good
22:39:15 <orion> Right.
22:39:15 <str4d> Something I've wondered - what about posting a/the competition on a freelance design website? To get more exposure.
22:40:06 <orion> If people reach out to me, I have no problem talking to them.
22:40:52 <orion> I can even show up to events if they are in the area.
22:41:03 <orion> (New Hampshire)
22:41:06 <dg> Mind if I ask the area?
22:41:06 <dg> -
22:41:07 <dg> haha
22:41:39 <orion> There is a train that goes directly to Boston though.
22:42:14 <str4d> One event that would be good to get people to is http://wiki.openitp.org/events:techno-activism_3rd_mondays
22:42:22 <iRelay> Title: events:techno-activism_3rd_mondays [OpenITP Wiki] (at wiki.openitp.org)
22:44:58 <str4d> orion: FWIW, as PR manager, the page/subpages on the website (revamp) http://vekw35szhzysfq7cwsly37coegsnb4rrsggy5k4wtasa6c34gy5a.b32.i2p/en/about/media would basically be under your jurisdiction.
22:45:05 <iRelay> Title: Presentations on I2P - I2P (at vekw35szhzysfq7cwsly37coegsnb4rrsggy5k4wtasa6c34gy5a.b32.i2p)
22:45:22 <orion> I will accept the PR role, but I am a poor college kid.
22:45:49 <orion> I can't afford to go to too many events.
22:46:16 <str4d> orion: talk to eche|on - there's always a possibility of funding.
22:46:27 <orion> Ok.
22:46:38 <str4d> And as a PR manager, you may end up drumming up additional funding anyway =D
22:47:13 <orion> I accept the position, and I will relinquish the position if I feel I am not up to it.
22:47:41 <str4d> You can't be expected to detract from your own RL work of course, but we do appreciate your assistance. And you won't be acting alone.
22:48:15 <orion> That sounds great. assistance would definitely be appreciated.
22:50:40 * str4d updates the website
22:52:03 <str4d> And done! Welcome (officially) to the team orion =D
22:52:18 <orion> Yay!
22:52:29 <str4d> (Though if being on the /team page makes it official, then I'm not technically an official team member =P)
22:53:40 <str4d> Okay, moving on to the last couple of topics:
22:53:43 <str4d> 6) 0.9.4 progress
22:53:43 <primal> IRL is evil.
22:53:43 <str4d> How are we looking at present? We are over the halfway mark for the usual 6-week release period.
22:54:06 <str4d> s/0.9.4 progress/0.9.5 progress/
22:54:09 <iRelay> str4d meant: 6) 0.9.5 progress
22:55:49 <str4d> As outlined in topic 1) the feeds work won't be ready for 0.9.5.
22:58:32 <primal> I'm not sure if this is an inappropriate time to ask, but is the Android i2p still in development? Or is that not an 'official' thing?
22:59:16 <str4d> primal: yes it is. zzz has an old stable version (0.9.1) but sponge has been working on the latest stuff.
22:59:23 <str4d> Current release: 0.9.1-0_b1-API8 http://zzz.i2p/topics/949 | Current dev build: 0.9.3-5_b2-API8 http://sponge.i2p/ (scan/click QR code)
22:59:38 <iRelay> Title: SPONGE (at sponge.i2p)
22:59:58 <str4d> sponge is also working on getting the normal Oracle JVM working on Android though, so stock I2P could potentially be used.
23:00:27 <primal> str4d: hmm, I ought to get ahold of him, I'd be interested in working on this.
23:01:12 <str4d> primal: talk to sponge, and see #i2p-android-dev
23:01:12 <str4d> And, yay!
23:02:01 <str4d> So, no feedback on 0.9.5 progress?
23:04:59 <str4d> If not, then on to the last defined topic:
23:04:59 <str4d> 7) Website revamp
23:05:03 <str4d> http://vekw35szhzysfq7cwsly37coegsnb4rrsggy5k4wtasa6c34gy5a.b32.i2p/en/
23:05:14 <str4d> Ticket #807 outlines my progress.
23:05:26 <iRelay> http://trac.i2p2.i2p/ticket/807 - (accepted enhancement) - Revamp of website
23:05:30 <dg> Just slipping this in, we're doing better thanks to the bug fix in 0.9.4 for network capacity. http://stats.i2p/cgi-bin/avg.cgi?a=tunnel.buildSuccess.60m&s=93&u=q
23:05:38 <dg> The estimated router count has gone up which implies better connectivity to zzz's router?
23:06:01 <dg> If we look at 6 months though, we're still not doing as good
23:06:12 <dg> anyway, sorry to hijack. :p
23:06:19 <str4d> dg: yes, good that you mentioned that
23:06:26 <primal> The new site is far far superior
23:07:21 <str4d> First point: I have changed the content of the left column (as per ticket #792 ) - thoughts?
23:07:24 <iRelay> http://trac.i2p2.i2p/ticket/792 - (assigned task) - Replace left column content
23:09:00 <str4d> Second point - at the bottom of #807 I have suggested some URL changes, which I would like feedback on. Another one is /lang/about/media vs /lang/media ?
23:10:39 <primal> ugh
23:11:03 <orion> str4d: Is http://vekw35szhzysfq7cwsly37coegsnb4rrsggy5k4wtasa6c34gy5a.b32.i2p/en/ supposed to show the new design?
23:11:10 <iRelay> Title: I2P Anonymous Network (at vekw35szhzysfq7cwsly37coegsnb4rrsggy5k4wtasa6c34gy5a.b32.i2p)
23:11:10 <str4d> Third point: http://trac.i2p2.i2p/ticket/807#comment:12 lists several content-related issues that need resolving, but I'm not that great at writing content. Assistance here would be greatly appreciated.
23:11:13 <primal> errr nvm. Had a complaint about links going to clearnet sites and being unmarked, then I realised this is to be the i2p clearnet homepage :P
23:11:16 <iRelay> Title: #807 (Revamp of website) – I2P (at trac.i2p2.i2p)
23:11:20 <str4d> orion: it shows one of the new designs.
23:11:43 <str4d> But the design itself is not finalized yet.
23:11:46 <orion> Ahh. How do you alternate between them?
23:12:01 <str4d> orion: look in the footer
23:12:13 <primal> str4d: I can help with writing, it's what I do. What needs fixing?
23:12:20 <orion> Firefox doesn't like the footer.
23:12:20 <str4d> "Duck" is the default, "danimoth" is another proposal I found, the others are from the old site.
23:12:30 <str4d> primal: see comment 12 as above.
23:12:37 <str4d> orion: I have no issues with FF17
23:12:40 <primal> str4d: indeed, checking now
23:13:11 <str4d> primal: re: clearnet links, this site will be the I2P-internal site as well.
23:13:23 <str4d> So your point about marking clearnet links is a good one - examples?
23:13:54 * str4d already has added logic so that I2P-internal sites get rewritten when viewed on the clearnet (to either their clearnet URLs if known, or to an inproxy).
23:14:25 <orion> http://i.imgur.com/PwDF8.png
23:14:29 <primal> Why is Research under Volunteer instead of About?
23:14:33 <str4d> It might just require adding a CSS class to any external <a> links so they can be specifically outlined or something.
23:14:52 <primal> I went and looked under 'About' first, and would if I was someone wanting to see 'hey, has this been TESTED? Can I trust it?'
23:15:30 <str4d> primal: because I'm intending that page to be more aimed at researchers wanting to test I2P, but that is a good point.
23:15:37 <primal> Ahh okay
23:15:55 <str4d> Stuff under the "About" menu (to me) is about existing stuff, rather than potential developments.
23:16:06 <str4d> So maybe the Papers link should be moved back into the about menu.
23:16:37 * str4d already split off the papers page from the presentations, tutoruals etc (which is now the media page)
23:16:52 <str4d> tutorial
23:16:55 <str4d> *
23:17:20 <str4d> orion: oh - that's because the old site doesn't have a footer.
23:17:23 <primal> I'd agree. A fellow at my local hackerspace who works on Tor actually asked me for that info once and I didn't know where to point him
23:17:30 <primal> having it clearly available would be good
23:18:05 <str4d> And I'm not a designer, so I haven't been playing with the old CSS much - I just got it mostly-migrated over to show how the new structure and layout fits into the old clothing.
23:18:20 * str4d moves the Papers link now.
23:18:54 <orion> str4d (see image)
23:19:56 <str4d> orion: yes, I looked at it - that's the theme from the current website, and I didn't add footer CSS to it. The two more modern themes (duck's and danimoth's) have footer CSS.
23:21:14 <primal> str4d: I would put the academic papers under 'Presentations, Tutorials, and Articles'
23:21:34 <str4d> primal: under it as in position-wise, or as a sub-menu?
23:21:37 <primal> Unless you want to emphasise them highly themselves
23:21:52 * str4d split off Papers from that page, and isn't about to merge them back =P
23:22:15 <str4d> Hmm...
23:22:26 * str4d put the link under "Comparisons" for now.
23:22:45 <primal> above them position wise. 'Academic Papers and Peer Review' perhaps
23:23:59 <christoph> the content is quite mixed there already
23:24:33 <primal> christoph: I'd prefer to amalgamate the content, but str4d said he isn't about to merge stuff ;)
23:25:00 <primal> I'm just saying, anyone who is *seriously* looking at I2P for security reasons will want to focus on the academic / peer review.
23:25:11 <str4d> primal: my point is, it's merged on the current site - I split it off because I felt that academic papers deserved their own page with their own layout.
23:25:21 <christoph> hm it's actually mostly fine now, /me seems to remember lots of different stuff mixed
23:25:31 <primal> I wouldn't trust software to protect me from getting killed/legal issues/etc without being able to read up on it
23:25:50 <christoph> so basically probably I was remembering before str4d splitof
23:25:53 <primal> str4d: I agree. As said, I'd recommend adding an 'Academic Papers and Peer Review' section under about for them
23:25:53 <str4d> primal: see http://www.i2p2.i2p/papers for the "old" version.
23:25:57 <iRelay> Title: Papers and Presentations on I2P - I2P (at www.i2p2.i2p)
23:26:12 <str4d> primal: refresh the page to see my shift for now
23:26:19 <str4d> But that's a good title.
23:26:22 <primal> ok
23:27:01 <primal> Looks good.
23:27:16 <str4d> Title changed locally - should I shift it further down that menu as well? Or rearrange the rest of the menu
23:27:19 <str4d> ?
23:27:42 <primal> Shift it down under 'Hall of Fame' imo
23:27:57 <primal> just above presentations and articles
23:28:35 <str4d> Mmm, I like that. Pushing...
23:29:37 <str4d> Any other comments? Does the front-page as a whole look okay? Does the left-hand column content work?
23:30:12 <primal> well
23:30:42 <primal> grammatically the second paragraph isn't quite right ;)
23:32:28 <primal> "I2P is used by many people who care about their privacy, as well as those in high-risk situations. It is ideal for activists, oppressed people, journalists and whistle-blowers."
23:33:09 <primal> Or perhaps... "I2P is used by many people who care about their privacy, as well as those in high-risk situations. It can benefit a wide range of people, such as activists, oppressed people, journalists and whistle-blowers."
23:33:17 <str4d> That second paragraph is a compact version of what used to take up that entire column (which I didn't like on its own - too much like the Tor site)
23:33:33 <primal> or even 'It can provide a secure method of communication for activists...' etc
23:34:12 <str4d> The main div already talks about secure communication
23:35:12 <primal> I2P is used by many people who care about their privacy, as well as those in high-risk situations. It is designed to protect activists, oppressed people, journalists and whistle-blowers - as well as the average person."
23:35:45 <primal> eh, I'm just tossing stuff out here. Anyhow, the sentence does need to be grammatically corrected and is a bit of a run-on, but I'm nit-picking ;) Generally it's fine
23:36:17 <str4d> I like that last one =)
23:36:58 <primal> yeah me too.
23:37:10 <str4d> "I2P is a full darknet implementation - a network within a network, unmonitorable by your ISP or government." - thoughts?
23:37:45 <str4d> That was taken from the Trac wiki page, and I think it's about as technical as you'd want to get on the front page.
23:38:15 <primal> Well, it is quite a definitive claim
23:38:23 <str4d> As zzz has said before, we want to carefully consider exactly what is said on the front page, as that will be important for SEO as well as it being what the users first see.
23:38:30 <primal> but if we're comfortable with that, ok :)
23:38:50 <str4d> Yeah... the first two "statements" are true enough, but the last is debatable.
23:38:57 <primal> perhaps 'intended to be unmonitorable by...'
23:39:12 <primal> i.e that's the plan,
23:39:41 <str4d> That makes it sound like it isn't yet ^_^
23:39:52 <primal> hmm
23:39:59 * primal tries to think of a better phrasing
23:40:38 <primal> I'd go with 'desgined to be' but I dislike repeating the same term and if you go with my other paragraph 2, it'd be repeated.
23:40:45 <str4d> The column links to about/intro as well, so that is likely where new users will head first.
23:41:08 <primal> 'created to be unmonitorable' perhaps?
23:41:44 <str4d> (So about/intro will need work as well)
23:41:48 <h2ik> I can guarantee that it's monitor-able but it takes a lot of effort
23:42:15 <h2ik> it's privacy/security through obfuscation
23:42:15 <primal> right but the INTENT is for it not to be monitorable. I'd go with 'created to be unmonitorable'
23:42:50 <str4d> h2ik: obfuscation? Not encryption?
23:42:53 <h2ik> or perhaps something like "designed to prevent monitoring"
23:43:08 <h2ik> str4d: well there is both but I can deduce end points
23:43:15 <h2ik> str4d: and if you want to get devious you could run an outproxy :-)
23:43:22 <str4d> h2ik, how so?
23:43:33 <primal> h2ik: yeah, but I used 'designed to be' in the next paragraph. It's just grammatically tacky to repeat the term ;)
23:43:45 <dg> let's not make promises we can't keep.
23:43:56 <dg> ioerror spoke about this, it's dangerous
23:43:56 <str4d> Also, we should distinguish between being able to monitor the I2P network itself, and being able to monitor network traffic wihin it.
23:43:59 <str4d> within*
23:44:06 <h2ik> which is ultimately my point there dg so thanks for getting me there faster
23:44:10 <str4d> dg++
23:44:29 <primal> "Created to provide security from monitoring by...."
23:44:43 <dg> It is extremely EXTREMELY dangerous and potentially fatal for us to say we can keep someone safe and that they are entirely safe from an adversary. However, we can tell them what we can protect against *as well as* our goals.
23:44:46 <primal> or 'protection from monitoring by...'
23:44:49 <h2ik> primal: how about intended to make monitoring difficult or some such ?
23:45:04 <dg> It's okay to say our goals and that's important for inspiring some people to use i2p, actually. It's a base for a secure internet.
23:45:16 <h2ik> +1 dg
23:45:19 <str4d> dg: yep.
23:45:24 <str4d> The flow I see for a new user is:
23:45:47 <h2ik> (sorry didn't mean to jump in on the discussion... just wandered by for the meeting)
23:45:50 <str4d> Front page -> about/i2p (either via the Read more... link or the About menu) -> other information.
23:45:50 <primal> h2ik: hmm "and is intended to protect against monitoring by third parties, such as hostile governments or ISPs'
23:46:00 <str4d> h2ik, you're more than welcome to =)
23:46:19 <h2ik> primal: I like that..
23:46:38 <primal> dg: yeah, that's why I asked about it, it seems to basically be promising more than we could be sure of delivering on.
23:46:57 <primal> str4d: "I2P is a full darknet implementation - a network within a network, and is intended to protect against monitoring by third parties, such as hostile governments or ISPs."
23:47:52 <str4d> primal: sounds good.
23:48:03 <h2ik> +1 primal
23:48:58 <dg> As long as we're not saying something which says "we make sure you can't get killed by your gov for using i2p!", we're on the right lines
23:49:18 <primal> yep and it keeps us from having to a disclaimer like Anomos has
23:49:34 <dg> Anomos = ?
23:49:41 <h2ik> "PS. we're faster than freenet"
23:49:44 <dg> disclaimers are no btw
23:49:47 <primal> http://anomos.info/
23:49:50 <iRelay> Title: Anomos (at anomos.info)
23:49:54 <primal> encrypted torrent thingy
23:50:05 <dg> Disclaimers are like "yeah man we do this for kicks but we're not promisin' nothin', maybe you'll be safe, maybe you won't"
23:50:12 <dg> there's no confidence at all
23:50:15 <primal> yup thats why I'm not a fan of them
23:50:31 <dg> many of the devs and team are passionate people and it's more than just something which may or may not help you not get killed
23:51:50 <primal> dg: I'm in agreement. No arguments from me on that count :) Heck, I'm just a user who likes his privacy, that's why I'm here. I haven't got an (overly) hostile government. But what I do online is still none of their business.
23:52:55 <primal> I just think this is a project that benefits EVERYONE in general. And I want to do what I can to make sure it succeeds :)
23:53:06 <dg> primal: I'm not oppressed but I want to help people who are. I'm the same! I want to make i2p better though, and we're all in agreement on that. As long as our website reflects that, we're golden.
23:53:13 <dg> +1
23:53:26 <primal> dg: precisely :)
23:54:01 <dg> The community feeling should be reflected. The active IRC and people here are a DEFINITE strong point.
23:54:28 <primal> dg: we need someone to advocate the point of the users of I2p imo, cause that's who makes it work ultimately
23:54:39 <primal> but I'm getting a bit off topic there :D
23:54:42 <str4d> Okay, text on front page updated.
23:54:49 <primal> str4d: awesome/
23:54:52 <dg> heh :D
23:54:55 <h2ik> primal: and those users are also the reason we are in business
23:55:10 <primal> h2ik: hey I'm one of them and so I agree
23:55:25 <primal> str4d: whistle-blowers is hyphenated :P lol
23:55:36 * primal nitpicks! ;)
23:55:40 <str4d> Whoops =P
23:55:48 <primal> rofl
23:56:03 <dg> as for anomos, meh. Kind of dangerous to have something only for BitTorrent too.. if you can fingerprint it, you can say "bam, bittorrent", maybe you can just say that all BitTorrent is bad and then goodbye anomos
23:57:18 <dg> Only looked at the site briefly though, I cannot judge.
23:57:55 <str4d> As much as I like this discussion, getting back onto topic, and my second point - URL changes in the revamp?
23:58:26 <primal> Is the android release mature enough to be on the page for download? or perhaps as a 'development release' or something? Or is that sponge's project and not something that ought to be up there?
23:58:29 <primal> dg: yeah I haven;t tried it, i2psnark works just fine for me.
23:58:29 <primal> sorry str4d :)
23:59:08 <str4d> So: would the url /lang/blog/post/XXXX/XX/XX/slug be preferable to the current /lang/blog/entry/XXXX/XX/XX/slug ?
23:59:15 <str4d> //lang/support/* vs /lang/help/* ?
23:59:22 <h2ik> str4d: we could add some of the newer services to the interesting eepsite list if that's what you are after
23:59:25 <str4d> /lang/volunteer/* vs /lang/get-involved/* ?
23:59:36 <dg> /post/* and /lang/help/*
23:59:59 <str4d> dg: you said support yesterday, not help =P
00:00:26 <str4d> h2ik: you mean the list of eepsites on /home ?
00:00:29 <str4d> (in the routerconsole)
00:00:36 <str4d> That's not what I'm referring to.
00:01:34 <iRelay> <jenkins@kytv> Starting build #12 for job Cobertura Coverage Reports
00:02:50 <h2ik> str4d: oh the front web page, I see, sorry.
00:03:35 <str4d> h2ik: I've re-organized the pages into more SEO- and user-friendly URLs, but I'm asking if they should be changed (before I go through and ensure that all internal links are up-to-date)
00:03:35 <str4d> h2ik: not the front page so much as the URLs of other pages.
00:03:42 <dg> str4d: changed my mind I think
00:03:45 <str4d> So e.g. /en/volunteer/bounties vs /en/get-involved/bounties
00:03:52 <dg> str4d: support is almost too professional?
00:03:56 <dg> str4d: /lang/get-involved/*
00:04:03 <str4d> And /en/support/faq vs /en/help/faq
00:04:06 * h2ik nods in understanding.
00:04:17 <str4d> dg: yeah, that's what I was starting to think as well, hence my RFC
00:04:55 <str4d> h2ik: the navbar roughly corresponds to the URL sub-structure, but not entirely.
00:05:11 <dg> /en/help/faq.. I think. I'm 50/50 on help/support. Help is maybe too bland but support too formal?
00:05:35 <str4d> dg: I was also worried about conflation of meaning with help / volunteer
00:06:34 <str4d> And if volunteer is changed to get-involved, what should be done about that menu? So far, no menu-opening items are linked as well (again, preventing conflation of meaning).
00:08:26 <dg> str4d: Get involved is more motivational, volunteer is not so "you can do something now!", I guess.
00:08:41 <dg> as for the help/volunteer.. uh.
00:08:44 <primal> yeah I like get involved
00:09:32 <str4d> primal: then where should the "Get Involved!" page be linked from?
00:09:51 <primal> main page
00:09:58 <str4d> AFK for 30 mins
00:10:01 <str4d> primal: I mean in the nav-bar
00:10:16 <dg> How about we just rename Volunteer to Get Involved?
00:10:31 <str4d> (See how "Volunteer" is the menu title and it has an option "Get Involved!")
00:10:34 <h2ik> +1 on that. Volunteer is crap
00:10:46 <dg> Then the navbar actually LINKS (like Download does), but has a drop down too?
00:10:49 <dg> Is this possible?
00:11:24 <primal> oh hurm
00:11:24 <primal> oh where it is is fine, just after 'help'
00:11:54 <dg> Also, the comparisons for networks is inconsistent.
00:11:54 <h2ik> Get Involved or Join Us (or similar) - we want to encourage people to join our fun band of like-minded privacy people .. just saying
00:12:18 <dg> /en/about/comparison/gnunet design even is different to /en/about/comparison/freenet
00:12:29 <dg> I don't know if I like /just/ the chunk of test either.
00:12:32 <dg> *text
00:13:13 <iRelay> <jenkins@kytv> Project Cobertura Coverage Reports build #12:UNSTABLE in 11 min: http://eotfca7qexthbireor6ae7g4hbj5hwuhe4gkzxdx3l3g2t5gzn7q.b32.i2p/job/cobertura/12/
00:13:25 <primal> dg: that was what I meant
00:15:51 <dg> Btw, where can I find swt.jar?
00:16:21 <h2ik> str4d: in case nobody has mentioned it before, THANK YOU for taking this on.
00:16:43 <KillYourTV> swt.jar: your package manager or http://www.eclipse.org/swt/
00:16:46 <iRelay> Title: SWT: The Standard Widget Toolkit (at www.eclipse.org)
00:17:01 <dg> ah ok
00:18:10 <KillYourTV> re: cobertura:
00:18:13 <KillYourTV> 00:13:10 Code coverage enforcement failed for the following metrics:
00:18:16 <KillYourTV> 00:13:10 Lines's stability is 24.85 and set mininum stability is 24.88.
00:18:16 <KillYourTV> 00:13:10 Methods's stability is 30.55 and set mininum stability is 30.65.
00:18:16 <KillYourTV> 00:13:10 Setting Build to unstable.
00:18:37 <KillYourTV> </ot>
00:21:03 <KillYourTV> <+dg> Then the navbar actually LINKS (like Download does), but has a drop down too?
00:21:03 <KillYourTV> <+dg> Is this possible? <-- possible and the way it was originally IIRC
00:21:33 <dg> not sure if it is a good design choice but it works better in $self->head
00:21:52 <primal> got dc'd
00:22:03 <primal> gah
00:22:06 <primal> got dcd
00:23:36 <str4d> I got dcd as well
00:24:16 <str4d> <dg> /en/about/comparison/gnunet design even is different to /en/about/comparison/freenet <-- I copied the /en/about/comparison/tor template
00:24:27 <str4d> The tor and freenet comparisons are as-is from the current website
00:24:38 <str4d> (Just split onto separate pages(
00:25:15 <str4d> <primal> dg: that was what I meant
00:25:23 <str4d> ^-- last I saw before dv
00:25:23 <str4d> dc
00:26:07 <dg> Ah, right. Still, not so great.
00:26:45 <str4d> Caught up from kytv's logs.
00:27:00 <str4d> h2ik: thanks! I decided that it needed doing ^_^
00:27:27 <str4d> dg: the same can be said for a number of existing pages.
00:28:08 <str4d> <dg> Then the navbar actually LINKS (like Download does), but has a drop down too? <-- That's my concern. What is the general position on this?
00:32:48 <dg> I'm okay with it but it may be bad "design-wise".
00:32:52 <dg> I'm no UX guy. ;)
00:33:06 <RN-Droid> are we still officially in meeting?
00:33:13 <dg> Kind of.
00:33:16 <str4d> RN-Droid: yes
00:33:19 <dg> If you wanna bring something up, shoot!
00:33:30 <str4d> Though I was about to end it, since it was tailing off.
00:33:54 <RN-Droid> have we got any feedback from postman about linking together the 2 channels?
00:34:09 <str4d> dg: it's marginally better now that I've removed the need for <a>s as styling, so the user can now tell the difference between a menu item that goes somewhere and one that doesn't (by the cursor)
00:34:15 <str4d> RN-Droid: I forgot to bring that up >_<
00:34:38 <str4d> And postman hasn't been around (not saying that he hasn't been listening)
00:35:01 <dg> RN-Droid: We do not need postman for it, just someone to set the mode.. more or less. zzz gave his blessing. IMO, we can redirect first, change things later. postman etc could apply a rule server side but we don't need it. Shouldn't cause any problems as long as someone is in the channel to keep the mode set.
00:35:08 <dg> str4d: ah, yes
00:35:45 <str4d> dg: still not sure if it's okay from a UX perspective (I wasn't even sure if having one of the top ones linking and the other opening was alright)
00:35:56 <str4d> (But at least with the latter, there is no linking AND opening)
00:36:27 <RN-Droid> great well I personally will leave it on my list but if we're redirecting people in I get disconnected uh how do we know for sure somebody's gonna be in there?
00:36:30 <str4d> So, to summarize the URL changes:
00:36:58 <dg> RN-Droid: Some bot.. or something. Ok temporarily but ideally, server side or nothing referencing it. or both.
00:37:01 <str4d> RN-Droid: it's an automatic redirect when they connect.
00:37:08 <dg> str4d: btw, sorry for hijacking so much
00:37:08 <str4d> (Isn't it?)
00:37:23 <RN-Droid> okay sounds good in Psych to pedia will probably be in there too so we should have it covered
00:37:26 <KillYourTV> if done server side it's automatic.
00:37:29 <str4d> dg: no worries. The rest of the meeting went to structure enough ^_^
00:37:37 <dg> str4d: and yes, but someone needs to be in there to keep up the mode, although doesn't have to be an op. Once the channel empties, default modes come back. I don't think you can mlock it.
00:37:44 <KillYourTV> (if not server side check out mode +L)
00:37:52 <dg> "org.eclipse.swt.graphics does not exist"
00:37:55 <dg> >.>
00:38:06 <str4d> So: I'll change /lang/volunteer/* to /lang/get-involved/* but leave the nav menu as-is for now until a UX decision is made.
00:38:09 <RN-Droid> okay we can hash out the mode situation of the service I redirect later Thanks for I listen to my input
00:38:16 <str4d> /lang/blog/post/* is already changed.
00:38:23 <dg> str4d: Sounds good
00:38:46 <str4d> And /lang/support/* vs /lang/help/* hasn't been properly decided on yet, so I'll leave it for now.
00:38:53 <primal> looks good to me
00:39:23 <str4d> primal: you're still keen to have a look at the writing-related tasks on ticket #807 ?
00:39:38 <iRelay> http://trac.i2p2.i2p/ticket/807 - (accepted enhancement) - Revamp of website
00:39:41 <str4d> (After another hour of discussion ^_^)
00:39:55 <RN-Droid> forward slash M e! drops out before baffing... I'll give more feedback when I redo the meeting later if there's anything else I have to add
00:40:03 <primal> str4d: sure I am lol
00:40:17 <str4d> Excellent =)
00:40:37 <str4d> And I'll close ticket #792 now that we have (mostly) decided on the front page text - if it needs tweaking the ticket can always be re-opened.
00:40:43 <iRelay> http://trac.i2p2.i2p/ticket/792 - (assigned task) - Replace left column content
00:40:51 <str4d> So, any other points of order before the meeting officially ends?
00:41:34 <orion> I just jizzed my pants.
00:42:39 <primal> str4d: I wish to propose we get a user advocate type position!
00:42:39 <dg> primal: We do, and orion has fulfilled it!
00:42:39 <dg> (PR manager == user advocate)
00:42:39 <str4d> dg: not quite =P
00:42:42 <dg> str4d: I thought we decided they were more or less the same umbrella?
00:42:45 <str4d> There is actually a separate entry for it on /team
00:42:52 <str4d> dg: sort-of.
00:42:59 <primal> oh really? cool
00:43:06 <primal> who is the user advocate?
00:43:25 <dg> I'm up for it if it's not the same thing as PR manager
00:43:28 <str4d> primal: orion is the PR manager, and apparently the user advocate as well.
00:44:02 <orion> If we have too many committees we'll end up like the Methodist hurch.
00:44:06 <str4d> dg: in my mind, PR manager was more about managing I2P appearances, liaising with media etc.
00:44:13 <orion> s/hurch/church
00:44:20 <str4d> *shudder*
00:44:20 <primal> rofl
00:44:23 <dg> str4d: ah, and user advocate?
00:44:34 <str4d> I don't think the definitions are too hard-set as it is.
00:44:41 <primal> str4d: well if a user advocate IS an open position, I'd want to apply for it, if you can tell me how I'd do so.
00:45:04 <str4d> From the /team page: User Advocate: gather, prioritize, advocate for user needs
00:45:07 <dg> I'm not sure what *I* am, while we're on the subject
00:46:03 <str4d> primal: well you can either JFDI ^_^ or you can wait until the next general meeting for a more formal application (like orion today)
00:46:14 <str4d> dg: neither am I, really ^_^
00:46:59 <str4d> primal, dg: if you hadn't gathered, next week's meeting is going to be a crypto meeting, discussing the need for migrating I2P's crypto (unless the time gets shifted).
00:47:10 <primal> str4d: how do I do it? is there a form or something ? amd plau
00:47:22 <orion> primal: I just made a thread on the forum.
00:47:33 <dg> str4d: I'll just be "dg - overall dg" for now then :)
00:47:36 <orion> zzz
00:48:03 <dg> as for the crypto meeting, I don't know if I can weigh in but I will try. I'm no crypto god but I'd rather not be silent for the duration.
00:48:03 <str4d> primal: not really a form, as it's not a proper formal process. zzz.i2p forum thread would be best, especially if there are more than one applicant (not that there's no reason for having both ^_^)
00:48:10 <dg> It'll be interesting for me nonetheless..
00:48:41 <str4d> dg: it's not going to be so much a decision of what crypto to go to (though I expect that will be important) as much as *how* to migrate.
00:49:07 * str4d aims to try and bring together the relevant minds to do some concerted brainstorming.
00:49:22 <str4d> Anyway, anything else to be officially meeting-ed?
00:49:44 <dg> str4d: Alright, I'll try to help where possible. Let me know if I should shut up though ;-)
00:49:48 <dg> Don't think so.
00:50:20 <primal> str4d: sounds good. I will do so
00:50:24 <primal> all done here
00:50:43 <str4d> Alright:
00:50:43 * str4d *baf*s the meeting closed.
00:51:01 <orion> Now for the after-party.
00:51:07 <str4d> \o/
00:51:14 <orion> \o\ \o/ /o/
00:51:29 <str4d> *wub wub*

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I2P dev meeting, January 8, 2013 @ 21:00 UTC
============================================
Quick recap
-----------
* **Present:**
christoph,
dg,
h2ik,
KillYourTV,
orion,
primal,
RN,
str4d,
welterde,
zzz
* **Next Meeting**
The next meeting is scheduled for Tuesday, January 15 @ 20:00 UTC (8:00PM)

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20:02:07 <hottuna> dg, is there a meeting today
20:02:26 <LaughingBuddha> oh yeah, it's tuesday
20:02:56 <hottuna> str4d, Meeh: is the meeting now?
20:03:49 <orion> yes
20:04:07 <Meeh> hottuna: dunno, hope so
20:04:26 <hottuna> alright, is there an item list?
20:04:56 <hottuna> dg, ping
20:06:07 <hottuna> alright, lets start it in 5 minutes
20:06:35 <hottuna> everyone around, igure out what you would like to talk about
20:06:57 <hottuna> when we start help create the item list
20:07:36 <iRelay> <weltende@freenode> I though today was the crypto meeting
20:08:07 <hottuna> weltende, i missed the last one. Im just trying to create some order
20:08:22 <hottuna> zzz, crypto meeting
20:10:23 <hottuna> weltende, what crypto was going to be discussed?
20:11:09 <hottuna> Alright, lets try to start this thing.
20:11:16 <hottuna> Meeting schedule:
20:11:28 <hottuna> * Syndie hackathon status
20:11:51 <hottuna> * I2P crypto
20:12:02 <iRelay> <weltende@freenode> hottuna: that I do not know..
20:12:20 <iRelay> <weltende@freenode> hottuna: should I send your r0ket per package or something btw?
20:12:32 <dg> am I in time?
20:12:51 <hottuna> i just started, but if you'd like to take over i'd be happy
20:12:53 <iRelay> <weltende@freenode> dg: yup
20:13:20 <dg> the most I know is "crypto"
20:14:32 <hottuna> dg, any other items we should take care of
20:14:35 <hottuna> ?
20:15:14 <dg> Syndie status, any updates from the researchers, general direction?
20:15:37 <hottuna> alright. lets start then?
20:15:55 <dg> sure
20:16:14 <dg> I'm hoping zab can appear as him and zzz know the most about the router internals..
20:18:28 <orion> I think we were going to discuss possibly upgrading the crypto.
20:18:28 <hottuna> moving away from dsa-1024 anyway
20:18:31 <orion> And the logistics behind that.
20:18:31 <hottuna> alright
20:18:31 <dg> Let me dig up the topic.
20:18:31 <hottuna> that makes sense
20:18:31 <hottuna> dg, http://zzz.i2p/topics/715
20:18:31 <dg> a-ha
20:18:42 <dg> ha.. two years ago
20:19:00 <hottuna> Should we start with "Syndie status" for the time being?
20:20:11 <dg> Yeah
20:21:09 <hottuna> Alright, how many items on the todo-list have been added / completed?
20:21:40 <hottuna> And whats the url for the todo?
20:25:43 <hottuna> Syndie changelog: http://zzz.i2p/posts/6095
20:25:43 <hottuna> Are there any syndie users around?
20:26:06 <dg> I've tested it but I've had issues/found it dead.
20:26:09 <hottuna> I tried it and started synching, but there are a lot of items to synch
20:26:16 <dg> Not sure if anyone is a regular user..
20:26:37 <hottuna> and if you allow a long histoty, maybe the newest posts should be fetched first?
20:26:44 <darrob> i'm kinda here.
20:27:08 <hottuna> darrob, you run an archive as well?
20:27:16 <darrob> hottuna: yes
20:28:23 <hottuna> have you been following the hackfest?
20:29:25 <hottuna> Syndie todo: https://github.com/i2p/i2p.syndie/blob/master/TODO
20:29:36 <eche|on> syndie hackfest was a success and it works quite well. currently there is a small issue with to much posts for first starters. Will resolve soon.
20:30:28 <hottuna> great is there a trac item for large initial synch or is it noted somewhere else?
20:30:32 <eche|on> syndie fetches by date
20:30:43 <darrob> yes, the hackfest is a huge success so far. zzz has fixed a whole bunch of bugs that made using syndie hard. even the pulling in of old messages should be better now, iirc.
20:30:46 <eche|on> and there are some discussions about "what is new"
20:31:34 <eche|on> in some kind of anonymity reason "all the archive gets today is NEW"
20:31:59 <hottuna> eche|on, I dont understand that last part. Are fetches done by latest post first?
20:32:05 <eche|on> no
20:32:13 <hottuna> When I synched recently it seemed pretty random
20:32:17 <eche|on> imho it fetches one after another, random
20:32:31 <eche|on> but it sends all messages which are "new" since a special date
20:32:42 <hottuna> maybe some order would be preferable
20:32:49 <eche|on> but new is/was not based on message creation date
20:33:04 <eche|on> new was based on date of arrival on server (out of anonymity reasons)
20:33:14 <hottuna> aah, I see
20:33:48 <hottuna> where should I go to suggest ordered fetching?
20:34:13 <eche|on> and if a server gets 5000 news from some "lost old archive" on one day, those 5000 are seen as new, even if the creation date is >5 years ago
20:34:16 <darrob> hottuna: post it in "Syndie dev". :)
20:34:27 <eche|on> or snydie bug ;-)
20:34:34 <hottuna> the syndie thread?
20:34:49 <zzz> we spent a week working on pushes, almost done, have to work on some date issues, then will look at pulls
20:35:08 <darrob> no, the syndie forum.
20:35:11 <eche|on> hottuna: oh, not yet in syndie -)
20:35:26 <eche|on> but you can change the default pull/push policy in your syndie
20:35:45 <hottuna> I've seen some settings but Im a pretty novice user
20:36:14 <zzz> but main point: I'm moving back to i2p, need you all to step up with more testing and coding
20:36:14 <eche|on> pull policy
20:36:29 <hottuna> ok, that is good to know zzz
20:36:44 <eche|on> yeah, I was under the impression zzz pulled the "jrandom card" and moved from I2P to syndie ;-)
20:36:44 <hottuna> Any other comments re syndie?
20:37:10 <hottuna> Alright, moving on
20:37:18 <hottuna> ** Updates from the researchers **
20:37:34 <hottuna> zzz, ahve you had any contact with any of them?
20:37:40 <zzz> will try to pick a spot for a release, probably numbered 1.103b-0, will need help from weltende to get it on website
20:37:55 <sponge> Question for everyone: Who here has a google account, and has balls of steel, and can place android related i2p stuff on a google drive account to allow faster access to android i2p related stuff? --> *IDEA* if i2p already HAS a google account, who is in charge of it, so I can get stuff to them to publish it on google drive?
20:38:06 <eche|on> hottuna: btw, we missed the cool mathematics beside us explaining elliptic curves
20:38:23 <eche|on> sponge: we do habe the I2P google account?
20:38:30 <eche|on> sponge: see query
20:38:30 <zzz> only what you saw here and on the zzz.i2p thread. but if christoph has anything to add, he is here
20:38:51 <hottuna> eche|on, I didnt miss it. I've been through that before. I had flashbacks and the sweats..
20:38:51 <sponge> eche: that's the question... do we?
20:39:02 <zzz> sponge, maybe stick to meeting topic?
20:39:05 <hottuna> christoph, we're having the weekly i2p meeting now
20:39:16 <hottuna> do you have any i2p-related updates?
20:39:19 <sponge> oh meeting? excellent!
20:39:59 <orion> Google account?
20:40:02 <orion> I'll do it.
20:40:14 <hottuna> Related to the research they're doing I read the GNUnet dht paper
20:40:21 <sponge> orion: Wow! xcellent!
20:40:24 <hottuna> and it was interesting
20:40:27 <eche|on> hottuna: lovely sweets, I was just impressed about those two crazy guys and I think elliptic curves are VERY cool now^^
20:40:54 <eche|on> sponge: what google accoutn do you need?
20:41:00 <sponge> zzz/others: I'm not a crypto expert, I have nothing to contribute to the meeting :-(
20:41:27 <dg> me too
20:41:40 <hottuna> R5N, gives nodes doing a lookup the option to just continue looking and having it eventually work as long as there is a single path to the desired key
20:42:00 <eche|on> sponge: and please see the query
20:42:19 <hottuna> It think it might be an interesting alternative for the netdb
20:42:30 <sponge> eche: basically someone who will be able to put up a large binary and apk's for android, including i2p-android (zzz's and the dev build) plus the libc stuff I am working on, which will be an apk file and a tarball
20:42:45 <hottuna> but im sure zzz isn't very keen on redoing the dht just quite yet :P
20:43:31 <eche|on> sponge: we got a I2P google code account. which could host that files, to. I just cannot tell about google play account
20:43:54 <hottuna> Alright, no further updates on the research?
20:44:13 <sponge> eche: the idea is to have something easy for people to get the APKs and tarball easily and as trouible-free as possible, instead of over i2p. It has nothing to do with Play store, Google Drive is free unless you want more space IIRC...
20:44:20 <zzz> sponge, maybe stick to meeting topic?
20:44:23 <hottuna> Moving on...
20:44:42 <sponge> will talk about it later
20:44:45 <hottuna> ** I2P crypto **
20:44:52 <eche|on> sponge: ah, ok, we do have official I2P google code hosting platform. Thats the best place IMHO
20:44:52 <zzz> a+ for starting mtg almost on time; step 2 is keeping it on topic and moving :)
20:45:19 <sponge> eheheh, I just happened to be awake ;-)
20:45:26 <hottuna> So what specific crypto decisions do we have infront of us?
20:45:41 <hottuna> Replacing DSA 1024
20:45:48 <zzz> I'd like to know who put "crypto" as the mtg topic, and what in particular did you have in mind?
20:46:09 <hottuna> I was told by welt
20:46:28 <dg> str4d but I'm not sure he's here.
20:46:39 <sponge> I say replace DSA 1024 with what ever needs to be done, and we need a way to still allow older routers to recognize what is in-use now.
20:46:50 <hottuna> No harm discussing it
20:47:20 <zzz> its a big topic of course, I'd like to hear what and why it's on the agenda, so we can stay focused.
20:48:06 <hottuna> this is why we should have a forum thread for every meeting
20:48:24 <eche|on> syndie *g*
20:48:32 <sponge> I think the largest mistake made in I2P was in not looking far forward enough to have some kind of hint as to what kind of crypto to use. Perhaps what could be done is to offer a hint via DSA 1024 in such a way that the older router will ignore such a hint, and a newer one will take the offer
20:48:55 <hottuna> thats is a good point sponge
20:48:58 <zzz> well (OT) we need somebody in charge of every meeting, so it has an agenda and can start on time. dg, are you going to start doing that again? if not we need to find somebody else
20:49:01 <orion> 20:21:47<+str4d> KillYourTV: could you update the /topic for the crypto meeting next week?
20:49:01 <orion> 20:22:57-!- KillYourTV changed the topic of #i2p-dev to: Syndie hackfest in progress, current Syndie build 1.102b-3 | Current I2P build: 0.9.4-4 | Dev Crypto mtg here 8:00 PM (20:00) UTC Tues. Jan. 15 | Report bugs at http://trac.i2p2.i2p / http://trac.i2p2.de
20:49:07 <iRelay> Title: I2P (at trac.i2p2.i2p)
20:49:27 <dg> Yeah, I'm fine with that. I got out of sync after I died. :)
20:50:15 <hottuna> Alright, I dont think the crypto bit is leading anywhere. Objections?
20:50:18 <sponge> zzz: is it possible to offer a hint in DSA 1024 in such a way that current and older routers will ignore?
20:51:02 <dg> hottuna: sadly, we pinned that as the topic and I didn't spend any time thinking of anything else..
20:51:08 <zzz> dg, ok with which? doing it again or having somebody else do it?
20:51:19 <sponge> will a 'dual crypto stack' cause much bloat?
20:51:22 <dg> We can talk about where we're going with things and our plans for restricted routes if you guys fancy it. It seems important to me but..
20:51:26 <dg> zzz: doing it again
20:51:53 <KillYourTV> meeting threads in Syndie <3
20:52:36 <hottuna> sponge, i think there are complications related to having multiple cryptos
20:52:43 <zzz> sponge, very briefly, for each _use_ of crypto (e.g. sigining RIs), not for each _type_ of crypto (e.g. DSA 1024), there's two things to do: decide if and when we need to change, and decide how to do it in a compatible way if possible. I've started the latter, and the thread's on zzz.i2p.
20:52:58 <hottuna> like crypto-downgrading attacks etc.
20:53:09 <zzz> but we can't talk about "DSA 1024", only a particular use of it (there's at least half a dozen iirc)
20:53:43 <zzz> and if we are going to talk about upgrading crypto next week, the tor paper is required reading in advance.
20:54:18 <zzz> (search for "read it and weep" on zzz.i2p)
20:54:28 <hottuna> dg, could you start a meeting thread on zzz.i2p or forum.i2p?
20:54:47 <hottuna> so that some notes for next week can be arranged?
20:55:35 <hottuna> link to tor paper: https://gitweb.torproject.org/tor.git?a=blob_plain;hb=HEAD;f=doc/spec/proposals/ideas/xxx-crypto-migration.txt
20:55:38 <dg> hottuna: http://zzz.i2p/topics/1268 - unless we need a new one?
20:56:12 <sponge> one thing we don't need is a I2P flag day
20:56:36 <dg> for the love of god no
20:56:39 <zzz> so sponge, in general, "bloat" is not the issue. compatibility is. pls read the read-it-and-weep paper
20:56:42 <hottuna> doh, that link is dead
20:56:42 <hottuna> actual tor link: https://gitweb.torproject.org/torspec.git/blob_plain/34ecac0fbac7f476bfcbf813767721fada62c17e:/proposals/ideas/xxx-crypto-migration.txt
20:56:48 <LaughingBuddha> hehe
20:56:59 <sponge> yes, i did read that thread a while ago
20:57:03 <hottuna> alright, any more comments on this topic?
20:57:41 <hottuna> dg, maybe we should have one per week so that topics can be discussed
20:57:58 <hottuna> and a topic list can be created
20:58:01 <sponge> as long as it is a smooth transition, just do what is needed, I'll be happy with it
20:58:08 <dg> might be a good idea for keeping things fresh but could get annoying over time
20:58:36 <hottuna> dg, we could at least try?
20:58:43 <hottuna> and see if it works out
20:58:54 <sponge> also, am I correct in that it won't change the b32.i2p format?
21:00:28 <sponge> i.e. it's still a hash
21:00:35 <dg> sure
21:01:47 <orion> sha256 seems reasonable for now
21:02:02 <hottuna> destinations relate to public/private keys
21:02:02 <hottuna> as long as we dont switch pub-keys or hashes we should be fine
21:02:37 <orion> What if we used an ECC primitive that resulted in public-key lengths which are the same that we use now?
21:02:44 <orion> i.e, 128 bytes
21:03:06 <hottuna> orion, that would be a terrible wast of cpu-cycles and bandwidth
21:03:10 <eche|on> I think those are 156 bits
21:03:29 <hottuna> and we still would need to notify the receiving end of what crypto we are using
21:04:42 <hottuna> alright, any more discussion relating to crypto?
21:05:34 <hottuna> Moving on...
21:05:44 <sponge> :-)
21:05:47 <hottuna> ** Open floor / Misc **
21:06:22 <eche|on> i cleaned ugha.i2p
21:06:37 <hottuna> there was a lot of spam around?
21:07:03 <eche|on> oh yeah, a few hundred spam articles
21:07:26 <hottuna> It's really nice that ugha.i2p is still around
21:07:44 <hottuna> I've read and posted some helpful stuff there
21:08:15 <hottuna> dg, could you create the meeting thread for next week?
21:08:31 <hottuna> orion, how is i2pcpp coming along?
21:08:42 <dg> Yeah. Any thing you want me to mention or just a "This is a meeting thread for discussion of $date's meeting.."?
21:08:44 <orion> hottuna: Inbound SSU works now.
21:09:07 <orion> I also can begin the build of inbound tunnels.
21:09:07 <hottuna> wow, you're pretty fast :)
21:09:19 <orion> Yeah, it's coming along very quickly.
21:09:34 <hottuna> dg, nothing special I was thinking of jumpstarting the crypto talk
21:09:34 <orion> College starts up again on Monday though.
21:09:37 <sponge> yea orion is pretty fast, considering how horribly obtuse c++ can be
21:09:47 <orion> Things are going to slow down a LOT after Monday.
21:10:02 <orion> So I am trying to get as much done as possible.
21:10:02 <dg> hottuna: Alright, will sum up the dilemma.
21:10:13 <LaughingBuddha> Maybe someone could create a page @ ugha with stuff that should be added
21:10:28 <hottuna> naturally, but there is a atleast a codebase we can direct people complaining about java to :P
21:10:51 <hottuna> LaughingBuddha, what stuff added to what? i2pcpp?
21:11:06 <LaughingBuddha> Sorry, stuff that we should have on the wiki
21:11:13 <LaughingBuddha> Like a request page
21:11:16 <hottuna> aah :)
21:11:19 <hottuna> good idea
21:11:19 <LaughingBuddha> Tutorials, etc
21:11:42 <LaughingBuddha> Would be nice to have a site to point new people to for common questions
21:11:53 <LaughingBuddha> How do I set up X
21:11:56 <orion> When is the new site rolling out?
21:12:47 <hottuna> orion, last time i was talking to str4d he was unhappy with a few of the pages
21:13:06 <orion> I see.
21:13:25 <hottuna> but Im thinking that maybe just launching it and working out small issues might be a good idea
21:14:08 <hottuna> eche|on and weltende: how much work is it for you to migrate to the new site?
21:14:34 <iRelay> <weltende@freenode> hottuna: not too much.. is it ready already?
21:14:57 <hottuna> I think it's getting there, str4d is no quite happy yet
21:15:22 <hottuna> but with str4d's blessing I would like to launch it before it is perfect
21:15:49 <sponge> living documents are never 'perfect'
21:16:16 <hottuna> that is my thinking
21:16:16 <sponge> so, you mean 'good enough'
21:16:18 <LaughingBuddha> :)
21:17:03 <hottuna> I think it is good enough. And a bit better than the current one
21:17:55 <LaughingBuddha> a bit?
21:18:06 <hottuna> quite the bit
21:18:21 <LaughingBuddha> It's like putting the old site in a time machine
21:19:48 <dg> anything apart from crypto, hottuna?
21:20:03 <hottuna> not that i can think of
21:20:19 <dg> alright, so we're going to discuss the DSA .. again?
21:20:48 <hottuna> like zzz, whe need to discuss every place where every cipher is used
21:21:11 <sponge> my thoughts and concerns as to DSA/crypto have been expressed, I have nothing more to say
21:21:49 <dg> hopefully can get zab on by then?
21:22:08 <hottuna> that would be optimal
21:22:23 <dg> hottuna: this ok? http://zzz.i2p/topics/1328
21:22:26 <hottuna> LaughingBuddha, I've added a requests section to http://ugha.i2p/
21:22:29 <iRelay> Title: zzz.i2p: Meeting [22nd January] (at zzz.i2p)
21:22:32 <dg> I'll email zab now.
21:22:39 <hottuna> Great dg!
21:22:42 <hottuna> thank you
21:22:45 <sponge> one thing to note about meetings when it concerns coders--- ever tried to hurd cats?
21:22:52 <hottuna> alright, anything else before I close this meeting?
21:22:59 <LaughingBuddha> Okay hottuna
21:23:10 <dg> hottuna: I think I should include getting ugha updated and talking about what we need to finish before we put the new site live
21:23:10 <hottuna> sponge, that's the feeling Im getting
21:23:13 <dg> I don't think so
21:23:31 <hottuna> agreed
21:23:46 <hottuna> Alright. This meeting is done.
21:23:52 <hottuna> See you next week, same time.
21:23:52 <hottuna> baf's
21:24:12 <dg> huzzah

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I2P dev meeting, January 15, 2013 @ 20:00 UTC
=============================================
Quick recap
-----------
* **Present:**
darrob,
dg,
eche|on,
hottuna,
KillYourTV,
LaughingBuddha,
orion,
sponge,
welterde,
zzz
* **Next Meeting**
The next meeting is scheduled for Tuesday, January 22 @ 20:00 UTC (8:00PM)