[22:53] 0.x) welcome [22:53] 1.x) todo before i2p 0.2: [22:53] 1.1) bw limiting [22:54] 1.2) AES the tcp transport [22:54] 1.3) package up [distro, building, seeding, running] [22:54] 1.4) ElG session ack discussion [22:54] * hezekiah is away: Is off eating to keep up is strength for his upcoming tests [22:54] 2.x) apps [22:54] 2.1) ns [22:54] 2.2) i2pim [22:54] 2.3) i2ptunnel [22:54] 3.x) ??? [22:54] 0.x) welcome [22:54] welcome to meeting 60 [22:54] thanks [22:55] oh. 60. whe have something to celebrate ;) [22:55] * jrand0m hands out some beers [22:55] *** wiht (anon@anon.iip) has joined channel #iip-dev [22:55] * mihi does not like alcohol [22:55] hi [22:55] * jrand0m takes back the german beer [22:55] i'm not awake [22:55] but not asleep either ;) [22:55] heh interesting [22:56] ok, 1.{x,1}) todo before 0.2 [22:56] i just remembered the meeting it today [22:56] i was just discussing wireless cards [22:56] the router is in pretty good shape, and I think 0.2 will be ready for internal dist and testing [22:57] *** Signoff: mihi (EOF From client) [22:57] there are three things that need to get implemented first though. bandwidth limiting, AES on the TCP, and ElG session ack [22:57] the bandwidth limiting will be classless for the moment - just one big honking input limit and output limit. [22:58] *** mihi_backup (~mihi@anon.iip) has joined channel #iip-dev [22:58] the code is committed to tie it in, but the limit is set at infinity atm [22:58] for point 1.2, the TCP transport has key exchange and authentication, but needs encryption [22:59] nop/semi-awake-thecrypto> thoughts on AES for streaming? [22:59] carefully [22:59] !thwap [22:59] sorry [23:00] * CounterRev eats popcorn in the grand stands [23:00] CBC using first 16 bytes of H(sessionKey) work, or should we do something else? [23:00] I can't remember where that originated, exclamation mark before an action. [23:00] i realized when the agenda started being pasted today was tuesday [23:00] dm> some eggdrops use them as command identifiers [23:01] why not use more bits from the DH for that? [23:01] hmm? [23:01] i don't see any problem for that [23:01] for the IV [23:01] more bits of what? X, Y, x, y? [23:02] *** mihi (mihi@anon.iip) has joined channel #iip-dev [23:02] K [23:02] !thwap thecrypto [23:02] what? [23:02] he said X,Y,x or y [23:02] AES 256 only has a 16 byte K [23:02] er, IV [23:03] the session key is 32 bytes [23:03] but you generate many more [23:03] (originally I was stupid and made the IV the first 16 bytes of the key ;) [23:03] so use 48 bytes from the DH [23:04] we all make mistakes. [23:04] hmm ok, pulling more bytes off the modPow will work. cool. but why 48? [23:04] (why not just another 16?) [23:05] i meant 32+16 [23:05] ah 'k [23:06] ok cool, CBC with that. if you or nop or someone else has time (userx?), we can get rekeying / rotating keys in there. but for the moment I'll get it CBC'ed w/ that IV [23:06] (rekey would be just drop the connection and re-DH) [23:06] ok, 1.3) packaging up for 0.2 [23:07] that just means a make / ant script, install / build doc, plus a method for distributing seed routerInfo references [23:07] (plus, most likely, a set of a few routers for people to connect to) [23:08] I hope to have 0.2 out and ready for people to d/l and install by this time next week, if not sooner [23:09] the one last point holding up 0.2 is the ElG session ack [23:09] can we use 0.2 to talk to each other? [23:09] yes dm [23:09] ok, that's useful. [23:10] dm: is talking with you really useful? *veg* [23:10] (Killer App: Cyber Sex) [23:10] 0.2 is definitely not even alpha, so it won't be for the faint of heart [23:10] heh [23:10] (but we need to get some testing and experience on some platforms and usage patterns other than my xp box here) [23:11] I'll take care of the marketing for I2P, I have a knack for it. [23:11] lol [23:11] 0.2 code name: CyberSex, features, anonymous CyberSex through text. [23:11] ok, the ElG session ack stuff. [23:11] I can test on FreeBSD and Gentoo Linux. [23:11] awesome wiht! [23:11] * popopopo can test Debian [23:11] nice [23:12] i can test on mandrake [23:12] * dm can test windows XP [23:12] damn we're going to have pretty good coverage :) [23:12] * dm stands out from the crowd. [23:12] I can test win2k as well I think, although that should be about the same as XP I think [23:12] hopefully [23:12] stick to unix popopopo [23:13] * thecrypto plays the trump: I can test win 98 :) [23:13] uuuugh [23:13] * dm welcomes his little brother to the crowd. [23:13] I have an old DOS disk around here. Will java run on that? :) [23:13] popopopo: Probably not. [23:13] actually, probably. [23:14] since gcc supports java [23:14] and djgpp runs on dos [23:14] I2P on DOS, now that would be an accomplishment [23:14] popopopo: there is a commercial java version for DOS ;) [23:14] * jrand0m is currently hacking around with gjc to see if we can compile to native [23:14] Getting PPP working on DOS would be accomplishment enough. [23:14] dm: use arachne. [23:15] gcj [23:15] should work via parallel modem. [23:15] oh shit [23:15] it's tuesday [23:15] haha [23:15] ah right popopopo... I always type it wrong [23:15] oops, serial modem ;) [23:15] wb nop ;) [23:15] nop: you and me both [23:15] haha [23:16] sorry [23:16] my brain is fried this week [23:16] re-cooping [23:16] from this weekend [23:16] nop: you and me both [23:16] ok, the ElG ack stuff. [23:16] (take 4) [23:16] * CounterRev could test xp as well "its running.. its running... its stopped" [23:17] right now the ElG+AES works by using session tags - 32 byte tags prepended to AES streams to identify what session key to decrypt with [23:17] and "it's bluescreened, it's autorebooting" [23:17] (these tags are distributed in the streams, and the session keys are distributed in the ElG) [23:18] the problem comes up if we lose the first ElG+AES, we've lost the session key as well as the initial set of session tags [23:18] brb, playing magic [23:18] so we need to make sure messages use ElG instead of AES with a session tag unless we know for sure the session key has been received [23:19] there are lots of optimizations and tradeoffs here - one could always ElG and just forget about acks [23:19] (trading cpu for bandwidth) [23:19] or one could always require an ack for the first block, and then AES [23:20] but that breaks if the recipient crashes and loses the session key [23:20] * nop is backlogging [23:20] there are a few different patterns that can be used to implement these sessions [23:21] what I'm probably going to go with is requiring an ack for the ElG message, using AES from then on, but every {$timeperiod, numMessages, bytes} send another ElG [23:22] like P frames in MPEG! [23:22] 'k, I dont know the MPEG standard really [23:22] sorry, I frames. [23:23] the thing is, these ElG messages are expensive. ~0.5-1.0 seconds [23:23] (cpu time) [23:23] though, hmm, we could precalculate them [23:23] (if we don't rotate session keys) [23:23] which cpu? ;) [23:23] sender or reciever cpu time? [23:24] exactly mihi - mine. p4 1.7g. so we need some perf tuning on the algorithm [23:24] both dm [23:24] (.5 encrypt, .5 decrypt) [23:24] (hand wavey approx) [23:24] * mihi has celeron 700 [23:24] * dm has PIII 850 [23:24] cool. I'm also getting a sun ultra1 (150Mhz) in a few weeks [23:25] Why you getting a SUN? [23:25] I'm leaving the option open for reevaluating our ElG keysize if we need to [23:26] dm> its free (you can buy a u1 for ~50-100 USD). I also have a few sparc for various purposes [23:26] sweet. [23:27] ok, unless anyone has any comments on the ElG stuff, on to agenda item 2.x... [23:27] ok, 2.x) apps [23:27] 2.1) ns [23:27] wiht, how goes? [23:28] *** Signoff: mihi_backup (Ping timeout) [23:30] I have not done any coding on the naming server this past week. [23:30] I should say "of" the naming server. [23:31] 'k, understandable.. what do you think your schedule looks like for the next few weeks for implementation? no committment or anything, just wondering [23:31] But I will be working on it this week, and should have something more to report during the next meeting. [23:31] cool, great [23:31] what is i2p like sans ns? [23:32] icq, I suppose [23:32] I should be less busy during the next few weeks, and will have time for this. I cannot say when the naming server will be completed at this time. [23:32] you need the secret number for contacting someone, but once you have it, you're ok [23:33] CounterRev: lots of very long destination keys... [23:33] CounterRev> I suspect someone will install a squid and an i2ptunnel on their router, allowing people to point at the destination and browse the web anonymously [23:33] *** mihi_backup (~mihi@anon.iip) has joined channel #iip-dev [23:33] ok, 2.2) i2pim... [23:33] thecrypto> you still playing magic? [23:34] i2pim, is that the name of the IM app? [23:34] yup [23:34] dm: Yes. [23:34] crap! i2m, Invisible Instant messaging. [23:34] i^2m, just like i^2p! [23:34] sounds like there's a market [23:35] dm: we had that discussion last meeting... [23:35] fine fine... I'll have to live with it. [23:36] ok, thecrypto is probably still off. he'll post to the list if there's any news on the i2pim [23:36] (i hope) [23:36] ok, 2.3) i2ptunnel [23:36] * jrand0m waves to mihi [23:37] jrand0m: I see that we have three applications being developed at this time. Have others been proposed? [23:37] oops... [23:37] but i have nothing to tell anyway ;) [23:37] i2p is in cvs; look @ it ;) [23:37] mihi speaks in code. [23:38] heh word. any updates since you added that config> command? [23:38] or rather, his code speaks for itself. [23:38] i2ptunnel is in cvs i mean... [23:38] * nop proposes ex-lax for i2p [23:38] jrand0m: nope. [23:38] coo' [23:38] would that be like a LaTeX clone nop? [23:39] wiht> some various discussions, but those three have been the main ones discussed [23:39] (the i2ptunnel enables a shitload of normal apps to operate over it) [23:40] has it been tested with anything? [23:40] i2ptunnel has been tested extensively with the local router. [23:40] (not locally) [23:40] I've done some web browsing with it, as well as ssh [23:40] (browsing a single site, that is) [23:41] * wiht wonders if that website can still track people through cookies. [23:41] great. [23:41] sure wiht, cookies are still sent [23:43] ok, thats it for apps atm, and on to 3.x) ??? [23:43] any questions, thoughts, concerns, toenail clippers, hedgehogs? [23:43] a pony? ;) [23:43] yeah, I want a pony! [23:43] * dm raises his glass. [23:43] nop will give you onw... [23:43] TO 0.2!!! [23:44] oh yeah, mihi pointed out that in 17 minutes we miss the deadline I set in my flog a month ago [23:44] to 1.0! [23:45] 7 minutes ;) [23:45] so 2 weeks from now, we'll have 20 people on the network who'll be able to send texts to each other? [23:45] I said we'd have an alpha out by end of september. well, it looks like we'll be a little late on that, but I think we're still making a good pace [23:45] yes dm (and files, etc) [23:45] sickening [23:45] there will still be room for performance improvements, of course. there hasn't been much tuning at all [23:45] sorry, I already spent my budget the next month [23:45] Alrighty, well if that happens, I will applaud. [23:45] pony has to wait [23:46] damnit! [23:46] bought a grand piano instead [23:46] ;) [23:46] heh nice [23:47] jrand0m: here are some virtual ponies for you: (Link: http://tinyurl.com/p8kx)http://tinyurl.com/p8kx [23:47] estimated latency? [23:47] with network < 30 nodes? [23:48] dm> depends on the sender and receiver's tunnel length [23:48] order of magnitude. [23:48] (e.g. if they have 0 length tunnels, it'll be approx 400ms) [23:49] 0 length tunnels, don't know how I2P works, but 0 length doesn't sound good ;) [23:49] or (Link: http://tinyurl.com/p8l7)http://tinyurl.com/p8l7 [23:49] if they have 2 hop tunnels, the latency should be ~ 1s [23:49] alrighty. [23:49] throughput? [23:50] harder to estimate? [23:50] depends on bandwidth [23:51] Say X is the non I2P bandwidth between 2 nodes, through all the hops I2P uses. [23:51] what is the equation for Y(X) where Y is the throughput of I2P from one node to the other. [23:51] I2P doesn't add a significant overhead to the size of the data [23:52] alrighty. [23:52] wait and see I guess. [23:53] once she's up and running, we'll definitely get some modeling going on [23:53] aye.. [23:54] * dm raises his glass. [23:54] To women! [23:54] dm: you forgot to lower it first ;) [23:55] You germans... [23:55] You wacky germans. [23:55] ok, I think thazzabout it [23:55] It's no suprise an american is leading us into the 21st century of anonymous networking. [23:55] * mihi /igs dm [23:55] american? [23:56] jrand0m is spanish i guess. [23:56] I was referring to you! [23:56] or italian or sth in CET timezone. [23:56] jrand0m, the quiet american. [23:56] dm: jrand0m seems to be a European. [23:56] !thwap mihi [23:57] !thwap wiht [23:57] jrand0m: your team members don't know you well. [23:58] * jrand0m thinks dm has been drinkin a lil too much, but its time for me to do the same. [23:58] * jrand0m raises the *baf*... [23:58] nice try jr! [23:58] * jrand0m *baf*s the meeting away