--- Log opened Wed May 22 02:01:22 2002
02:01 <+logger> Logging started
02:01 <@nop> ok
02:01 <@nop> welcome to this humble first meeting
02:01 <@nop> first and foremost
02:02 <@nop> Thank you's to all of you for your efforts
02:02 <@nop> especially as we all know that there is Real life to deal with
02:02 <@nop> and that we've done pretty well so far
02:02 <@nop> meeting: The reason for this meeting(s) will be plural hopefully
02:03 <@nop> we need to gain some order for development and schedules and tasks that are being done for IIP
02:03 <@nop> whether it's contributed tasks, ala #factory, or backend, ala inform, or core ala IIP software
02:03 <@nop> or ircd
02:03 <@nop> :)
02:03 <@mids> .
02:04 <@mids> (to indicate I am here)
02:04 <@nop> I think we all share a common goal in supporting this project, and it has it's rewards just knowing the technology is becoming possible to help a lot of people with free speech, privacy, anonymity and security
02:04 <@nop> this is a great project in the matter, because it challenges all of these topics, and is sparking intereests especially in these times
02:05 <@mids> agenda:
02:05 <@mids> - Welcome (nop)
02:05 <@mids> - Status of developers / projects (nop)
02:05 <@mids> - Website (nym)
02:05 <@mids> - Release Roadmap
02:05 <@mids> - Documentation (cohesion, codeshark, mids)
02:05 <@mids> - Question Round
02:05 <@nop> so welcome all, and again thank you.
02:05 <@Chocolate> (still connected)
02:05 <@nop> next on the agenda: Status of developers
02:05 <@nop> hehe
02:06 <@nop> before we get there
02:06 <@nop> a side not, this meeting is invite only
02:06 <@nop> but will be logged and published to the public for viewing and/or comments
02:06 <@nop> as well as the results 
02:06 <@mids> live logging is on http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iip-dev.txt
02:06 <@mids> (in case you drop out)
02:07 <@nop> ok
02:07 <@nop> Status of developers
02:07 <@mids> who first? :)
02:08 <@nop> UserX and I have been focusing on IIP 1.1 to be released, but we're to the point of no return where we would like to release iip rc2 for running tests by the team and public, but would like more thorough docs, so that's the hold up there
02:08 <@nop> let's talk about docs
02:08 <@nop> status : mids, cs, ?
02:08 <@codeshark> you :)
02:08 <@mids> .
02:08 <@mids> me
02:09 <@mids> I joined IIP when I heared about it on Freenet
02:09 <@mids> after some chatting etc, I made Trent
02:09 <@mids> our big friend :)
02:09 <@nop> yes
02:09 <@mids> also done some ircd patches
02:09 <@mids> helped by Chocolate, thanks!
02:10 <@mids> I promised 0x90 to look into doing client 2 client encryption
02:10 <@mids> I did a lot of talking and research
02:10 <@mids> but nothing is done :(
02:10 <@nop> tis ok
02:10 <@mids> currently I kind of dropped it, because I lacked time and willing
02:10 <@mids> something slightly related:
02:11 <@mids> I coded bankbot
02:11 <@mids> another helpfull application for IIP :)
02:11 < nym> hey
02:11 <@nop> welcome
02:11 < nym> only non op ;)
02:11 <@nop> mids
02:11 <@nop> continue
02:11 -!- mode/#iip-dev [+o nym] by Chocolate
02:11 -!- mode/#iip-dev [+o nym] by mids
02:11 <@nym> sorry, i was under the impression the meeting was tomorrow
02:12 <@mids> last act of me was that I ported the docs to LaTeX, more about that later
02:12 <@mids> .
02:12 <@nop> k
02:12 <@nop> cs
02:12 <@codeshark> ok, like mids i heared about iip on freenet
02:12 <@codeshark> and chatted with nop about it :)
02:13 <@codeshark> then i made our inform relaychecker script, that keeps a list of the running nodes
02:13 <@codeshark> now i'm doing some anonymail stuff...
02:14 <@nop> on a note
02:14 <@nop> cs is responsible for the "dynamic routing system" that being the inform server
02:14 <@nym> freenet is too slow, so i came here
02:15 <@codeshark> anything else?
02:15 <@codeshark> hmm, the docs
02:16 <@codeshark> i created a windows version of our docs (.chm format)
02:16 <@nop> yes
02:16 <@nop> which will need updating once cohesion finishes the docs
02:17 <@codeshark> i also made a test for the docbook format
02:17 <@codeshark> but we'll come back to this later
02:17 <@mids> you bet I will
02:17 <@codeshark> that's it for now
02:18 <@codeshark> chocolate?
02:19 <@Chocolate> I first heard of IIP on freenet from CofE
02:19 <@Chocolate> after seeing a couple of anouncements about it on his freesite
02:19 <@Chocolate> I decided to try it out
02:19 <@Chocolate> since then I have helped with misc things
02:20 <@Chocolate> running a relay (precrypto, the DH didnt work on my 486)
02:20 <@Chocolate> helping to debug the memory leak (by killing the ircd for about 5 hours...)
02:21 <@Chocolate> my first main codeing cotribution to IIP was helping mids with Trent
02:21 <@nop> kewl
02:21 <@nop> don't forget hydrabot
02:21 <@nop> or eyek0n
02:21 <@Chocolate> oh yea right
02:22 <@Chocolate> hydrabot came out of a disire to be able to see waht was happening on #freenet on OPN
02:22 <@Chocolate> unfortunetly the bot died the sad death of flexibilitise
02:23 <@nop> and along came eyek0n
02:23 <@nop> :)
02:23 <@Chocolate> yes, eyek0n is a modified changate that was hacked up to serve the purpos that HydraBot was intended to fill
02:25 <@Chocolate> I also maintain a misc group of xchat and other scripts for IIP, some donated, others my own
02:25 <@Chocolate> my current area of work is on ThreadChat, a realtime BBS/forums type sytem over IRC
02:25 <@Chocolate> .
02:25 <@nop> kewlness
02:26 <@nop> ok
02:26 <@nop> is that all?
02:26 <@mids> ardvark just joined, he isnt a developer, but a zeroday user... he isnt allowed to introduce himself because otherwise this will take too long
02:26 <@mids> maybe a quicky for nym?
02:26 <@nop> ok
02:27 <@nop> nym : developer intro
02:28 <@nop> ok
02:28 <@nop> I'll say it
02:28 <@nop> he seems to be off somewhere
02:28 <@mids> go for it
02:28 <@nop> he comes to us as the web developer of freenetprojects' site
02:29 <@nop> and we're open he can give us a make over to give us a more global appeal of anonymous irc/internet projects
02:29 <@nop> open == hoping
02:29 <@nop> he will be focusing on a lighter design with press releases etc
02:29 <@nop> gives us less of a hobby and more of a serious developer team look to us
02:30 <@nop> even though you can't see us
02:30 <@nop> :)
02:30 <@nop> hehe
02:30 <@mids> :)
02:30 <@nop> ok
02:30 <@nop> agenda list
02:30 <@nop> please
02:30 <@mids> - Website (nym)
02:30 <@mids> - Release Roadmap
02:30 <@mids> - Documentation (cohesion, codeshark, mids)
02:30 <@mids> - Question Round
02:31 <@Chocolate> can't do website now if nym isnt here
02:31 <@nop> ok well let's talk about website when nym seems awake
02:31 <@nop> so Release Roadmap
02:31 <@mids> .
02:31 <@nop> our first focus on this is rc2
02:31 <@nop> This is for testing the changes and added features and to break in any network changes that may occur before 1.1
02:32 <@nym> hi
02:32 <@nym> i'm here
02:32 <@nop> ok
02:32 <@nop> website
02:32 <@nop> please
02:32 <@nop> then we'll go back
02:33 <@nop> to roadmap
02:33 <@nym> well the website is coming along, although i thought i had another day to get something to you guys
02:33 <@nop> do you have any screen shots at all
02:33 <@nym> not on hand
02:33 <@nop> hmm mids
02:34 <@mids> http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/draft2.jpg
02:34 <@nop> do you have draft2?
02:34 <@nop> ok
02:34 <@nop> that will give people an idea
02:34 <@nop> this is older
02:34 <@nop> but it's what we have
02:34 <@nym> okay, well what i need to know is what release this is going to correspond with
02:34 <@nop> the current release
02:34 <@nop> and we can modify easily
02:34 <@mids> nop: current as in rc2 ?
02:35 <@nop> current as as soon as we can get something
02:35 <@nym> i thought you had a big release on the horizon
02:35 <@nop> so focus on iip 1.1 rc1
02:35 <@mids> :)
02:35 <@nop> yes
02:35 <@nop> but
02:35 <@nop> we need something going
02:35 <@nop> other than what we have
02:35 <@nop> something that has a easily modifiable template
02:35 <@mids> we want to have the site betatested too, same with the rcs
02:35 <@nop> so that it can be prepped for released
02:35 <@mids> so we can go 'big' on 1.1
02:35 <@nop> releases
02:35 <@nop> ok
02:35 <@nop> site betatested
02:35 <@nym> yeah, but what releases do you have coming, and when?
02:36 <@nop> rc 2
02:36 <@nop> is coming
02:36 <@nop> cohesion is working on docs
02:36 <@nop> cs it's easy for you to do .chm correct?
02:36 <@nym> no idea what those are
02:36 <@codeshark> nop: we'll have to talk about docs later :)
02:36 <@nop> ok
02:36 <@Chocolate> are we on the relese roadmap now or are we still on the website?
02:36 <@nop> website
02:36 <@nop> we went back
02:36 <@nop> because nym is awake ;)
02:36 <@nym> aye
02:37 <@nop> let's focus on getting somethign up
02:37 <@nop> then we can be focused on release
02:37 <@nym> hrm okay
02:37 <@nym> well i'll get something going
02:37 <@nop> we would like to have it modifiable
02:37 <@nop> this is key
02:37 <@nop> so it's template based
02:38 <@mids> nym: can you name the changes between the draft and current?
02:38 <@nym> umm
02:38 <@nop> umm, current I have no clue on
02:38 <@nop> he might
02:38 <@nop> I saw n : and answered
02:38 <@nop> my bad
02:38  * nop will shut up now
02:39 <@nym> okay..
02:39 <@nym> well lots 
02:39 <@nym> font changes
02:39 <@nym> drop shadows
02:39 <@nym> the logo looks different (invisiblenet.net/iip/)
02:40 <@nym> better crunchbox logo
02:40 <@mids> great
02:40 <@nym> we don't have a mac version, so i dropped that
02:41 <@nym> plus i dropped anything to do with invisible im because that's not happening
02:41 <@nop> not as that title
02:41 <@nop> no
02:41 <@nym> that's confusing
02:41 <@nop> IIP is simple and makes sense
02:41 <@mids> question: what about FreeBSD & OpenBSD ? its the same release as linux
02:41 <@nop> let's focus on the now for that
02:42 <@nop> yes
02:42 <@nop> mids it is
02:42 <@mids> freebsd users will be offended if they would have to click on a Tux
02:42 <@nop> hmm
02:42 <@nop> good point
02:42 <@nym> i worry about the neiche market still tho
02:42 <@nop> can we have maybe a tux and a devil fucking ;)
02:42 <@nop> hehe
02:43 <@nym> well we'll offer source
02:43 <@nym> freebsd doesn't need a logo
02:43  * nop says bad jokes too oftne
02:43 <@nop> often
02:43 <@nop> ok
02:43 <@nop> so when can we get a new draft
02:43 <@nop> give us a solid date
02:43 <@nop> GMT
02:43 <@mids> :)
02:44 <@nym> well i can promise progress by next meeting
02:44 <@nym> but i'm in the middle of a big contract atm
02:44 <@nop> how much progress, like something we can put up?
02:44 <@nym> well no
02:44 <@nop> hmm
02:44 <@codeshark> nop: it's better to wait until it's complete anyway
02:45 <@nym> ditto
02:45 <@mids> codeshark: current looks is terrible
02:45 <@nop> understood codeshark : just thinking maybe we can revamp the current look though
02:45 <@mids> I suggest reverting to the old look
02:45 <@nop> it needs a lighter feel
02:45 <@mids> till the site is done
02:46 <@nop> we could do that unless nym can maybe dish out a slightly lighter look for it possibly
02:46 <@nop> with a donation button and just like an intro page
02:46 <@nym> for what?
02:46 <@nop> for the site, instead of the under construction we have now
02:46 <@nop> maybe like something gives more an intro and download software right off the bat
02:47 <@Chocolate> well the old site is linked
02:47 <@nop> then take them to the site behind it
02:47 <@codeshark> nop: just make the old page easier to find
02:47 <@codeshark> put the link up a bit
02:47 <@nop> ok
02:47 <@nym> well edit that as needed
02:47 <@nop> ok
02:47 <@nop> we'll figure something out
02:47 <@mids> k
02:47 <@nym> i'm going to keep working on the big release
02:47 <@nop> can you give us a draft by friday?
02:48 <@nym> most likely
02:48 <@nop> ok
02:48 <@codeshark> but keep the intro page until the new site is complete
02:48 <@mids> screenshot is enough
02:48 <@nop> thnk you
02:48 <@nop> yes
02:48 <@nop> screenshot/draft
02:48 <@nop> same thing to me
02:48 <@nym> i've got everything on my laptop now.. 
02:48 <@nym> it shouldn't be a problem
02:48 <@nop> ok
02:49 <@nop> next part
02:49 <@nop> back to roadmap release
02:49 <@mids> what are the current limits for doing RC2 ?
02:49 <@codeshark> what's missing except the docs?
02:49 <@nop> RC2 as stated earlier is designed to get all the bugs out and adjust to changes for 1.1 final release
02:49 <@nop> that's it
02:49 <@nop> docs are needed
02:49 <@nop> and new .chm
02:49 <@nop> and cs
02:49 <@nop> make sure we don't include .ini or listen.ref this time
02:49 <@nop> :)
02:49 <@codeshark> sure :)
02:50 <@codeshark> has been removed
02:50 <@nop> ok
02:50 <@nop> also
02:50 <@nop> cs
02:50 <@nop> in the future
02:50 <@nop> as people move over
02:50 <@nop> to rc2
02:50 <@nop> we can wait a week
02:50 <@nop> but then after that I need you to add closedelay: infront of the networkprotocol = closedelay:etc
02:50 <@nop> this is a key feature
02:50 <@nop> that has been wanted
02:51 <@codeshark> ok
02:51 <@nop> this tells the network to hold on to the user even if he dies out from 15-45 seconds
02:51 <@mids> (closedelays makes your connection staying up for a little while if your client or node disconnects)
02:51 <@mids> (making it harder to track you to your IP)
02:51 <@nop> yes
02:51 <@codeshark> will it break rc-1 clients completely?
02:51 <@Chocolate> can you reconnect to the held connection?
02:51 <@nop> if we wait a week
02:52 <@nop> most people should have upgraded
02:52 <@codeshark> i'd wait a bit longer than a week
02:52 <@nop> ok
02:52 <@nop> maybe 2
02:52 <@nop> because the network side will have it
02:52 <@nop> it will still help you
02:52 <@nop> but by the time rc2 is everyone
02:52 <@nop> the entire network will help support your delayed presence
02:53 <@nop> please send a ! now if you guys are willing to pre-test before we officially release rc2
02:53 <@nop> making sure things go smoothly
02:53 <@mids> !
02:53 <@codeshark> !I have to do that anyway ;)
02:53 <@nop> hehe
02:53 <@nop> anyone else?
02:54 <@codeshark> tell me if you're ready for rc-2 and i'll prepare the windows installer and *nix tgz
02:54 <@nop> irc is tough for this anyway
02:54 <@codeshark> you have my pager e-mail?
02:54 <@nop> ok, should be ready for friday, but I really want docs updated 
02:54 <@nop> no I don't
02:54 <@Chocolate> !
02:54 <@nop> please send it privately
02:54 <@codeshark> sure
02:55 <@nop> this is a publicly logged channel
02:55 <@nop> you all have mine I assume
02:55 <@Chocolate> the one that's only outgoing?
02:56 <@nop> hehe
02:56 <@nop> ok, to answer cs's question
02:57 <@nop> closedelay - we need to hold off at least 2 weeks
02:57 <@nop> and promote it well enough
02:57 <@nop> so that people do upgrade
02:57 <@nop> the challenge is
02:57 <@nop> making sure relay users can just simply upgrade
02:57 <@nop> without redoing the relay system
02:57 <@nop> that should be trivial
02:57 <@nop> but it's a necessity to make sure it's done right
02:57 <@nop> choc
02:57 <@nop> your question of reconnecting to help connection
02:57 <@nop> can you elaborate
02:57 <@nop> held
02:57 <@nop> not help
02:58 -!- mode/#iip-dev [+o UserX] by mids
02:58 <@nop> welcome userx
02:58 <@UserX> hi
02:58 <@nop> can you redisplay agenda list for userx
02:58 <@nop> please
02:58 <@mids> - Welcome (nop)
02:58 <@mids> - Status of developers / projects (nop)
02:58 <@mids> - Website (nym)
02:58 <@mids> - Release Roadmap
02:58 <@mids> - Documentation (cohesion, codeshark, mids)
02:59 <@mids> - Question Round
02:59 <@nop> we're on release roadmap
02:59 <@Chocolate> the closedelay holds the connection open after the user drops from IP change, or (ip) network failure
02:59 <@nop> yes
02:59 <@Chocolate> can you reconnect to this help connection?
02:59 <@nop> no
02:59 <@nop> it's just for traffic analysis preventative assistance
02:59 <@Chocolate> ok, great
02:59 <@nop> but there is a major other feature that works
02:59 <@Chocolate> I assume it's help for a random time?
02:59 <@mids> s/help/held/
03:00 <@codeshark> nop: did you include the feature that tries another relay if the first doesn't work?
03:00 <@Chocolate> s/help/held/
03:00 <@nop> it will retry (default 5 tries) (random time yes) when connecting to network nodes so you won't get disconnected each time a relay doesn't work
03:00 <@codeshark> ok, cool
03:00 <@nop> codeshark see above, yes
03:00 <@mids> wow, cool
03:00 <@nop> this does not help you if a relay fails and you're already conencted to it
03:01 <@nop> that is what closedelay does though
03:01 <@nop> is makes you stall a bit visually
03:01 <@codeshark> btw: we should stop adding features now
03:01 <@nop> it's already stopped
03:01 <@nop> :)
03:01 <@codeshark> :)
03:01 <@nop> cvs rc2 is tagged I believe is it not userx?
03:01 <@UserX> it's not tagged yet
03:01 <@codeshark> nop: not only to rc-2 but also to 1.1
03:01 <@nop> correct
03:02 <@nop> rc2 is just testing of the already set features
03:02 <@nop> and changes
03:02 <@nop> also cs
03:02 <@nop> make sure we have a decent changelog
03:02 <@nop> I sent you that list
03:02 <@codeshark> hmm
03:02 <@codeshark> email?
03:02 <@nop> the changes and features
03:02 <@nop> yes
03:02 <@nop> I cc'd to you and cohesion
03:02 <@Chocolate> could there be someway to verify that a relay has been added to the check list?
03:02 <@nop> UserX - we're covering roadmap release, is there anything you would like to add
03:02 <@codeshark> k, got it
03:03 <@Chocolate> like I have no idea if my relay isnt on the public list becouse it didnt inform right, or becouse it's to unreliable
03:03 <@nop> choc it's most likely not
03:03 <@nop> but that's ok
03:03 <@nop> we forgive you
03:03 <@nop> :)
03:04 <@codeshark> hmm, i think i should add a page where you can get infos about you relays
03:04 <@mids> Chocolate's question is often asked
03:04 <@codeshark> "you relays" = "your relay"
03:04 <@nop> and you don't think that would compromise anything
03:05 <@Chocolate> make the request come from the IP that the relay in question would have?
03:05 <@codeshark> i won't show too much info
03:05 <@codeshark> and i need to keep the deleted relays too
03:05 <@codeshark> just mark them as deleted
03:05 <@nop> spoofing 
03:05 <@nop> UserX - looks like that's a no
03:05 <@nop> hehe
03:06 <@codeshark> nop: tcp/ip conections can't easily be spoofed
03:06 <@nop> easily, but they can be
03:06 <@codeshark> except you are somewhere between the relay and me
03:06 <@mids> it is a php thing isnt it? (not an isproxy one)
03:06 <@codeshark> yes
03:06 <@nop> agenda list please
03:07 <@mids> - Welcome (nop)
03:07 <@mids> - Status of developers / projects (nop)
03:07 <@mids> - Website (nym)
03:07 <@mids> - Release Roadmap
03:07 <@mids> - Documentation (cohesion, codeshark, mids)
03:07 <@mids> - Question Round
03:07 <@codeshark> i'll just show a small status message ("your node is on the public list", "your node has been deleted because it was down to often..."
03:07 <@nop> ok
03:07 <@nop> cs that's fine
03:07 <@nop> any more questions on roadmap release
03:07 <@mids> .
03:07 <@nop> ok next part
03:07 <@nop> documentation
03:07 <@mids> ill do intro
03:07 <@nop> k
03:08 <@mids> cohesion is document manager
03:08 <@mids> but he isnt here
03:08 <@mids> codeshark and me are both working on it
03:08 <@mids> codeshark did .chm (windows help) and Docbook
03:08 <@mids> and will tell about that
03:08 <@mids> I did a LaTeX version, and will explain that
03:08 <@mids> why 2 systems?
03:08 <@mids> docbook was taking long, and I was getting impatient
03:09 <@mids> I knew that a release should be soon, so docs are wanted
03:09 <@mids> I have no hate regarding codeshark or anything :)
03:09 <@codeshark> :)
03:09 <@mids> codeshark, can you tell us about docbook? pro and con and status?
03:09 <@nop> also note
03:09 <@codeshark> ok
03:09 <@nop> cs was in the process of moving
03:10 <@codeshark> pro's: docbook uses xml; it can generate different output formats: pdf, html, and "CHM"
03:10 <@codeshark> cons: it's not that easy to learn. I think i'm the only one who wrote some help pages in it yet :(
03:10 <@mids> hey, I ported trent!
03:11 <@codeshark> completely?
03:11 <@codeshark> cool
03:12 <@codeshark> another thing about the docbook stuff we use: it's taken from the phphelp
03:12 <@codeshark> so we have all the tools/templates for the different output formats
03:12 <@mids> http://cvs.php.net/cvs.php/phpdoc
03:12 <@mids> they made the CHM link with M$ chm cooking facility
03:13 <@codeshark> it has been tested. it works. i converted some chapters of the doc to docbook
03:13 <@codeshark> about CHM: why CHM?
03:14 <@mids> proprietary fileformats are cool? :)
03:14 <@codeshark> nope :)
03:14 <@codeshark> it's the default help format on windows. it supports keyword search, fulltext search and has a nice grouping of the help chapters
03:15 <@codeshark> it allows you to add bitmap to the helps (see iip.chm)
03:15 <@nop> also very handy for IIP help systray  option
03:15 <@codeshark> btw: mids, there's also a *nix chm viewer
03:15 <@mids> sure
03:16 <@mids> done?
03:16 <@codeshark> yes
03:16 <@mids> okay, LaTeX is a much older system then docbook
03:17 <@mids> pro: its well known in the academic word, it doesnt use XML, it support different outputs: ps, dvi, pdf, html, txt. and I know it
03:17 <@mids> con: it doesnt use XML, it is not very easy to learn, no native .CHM support
03:17 <@nop> interrupt
03:17 <@nop> real quick
03:17 <@mids> I converted the whole v1.1.2-pre9 doc
03:17 <@mids> ok
03:18 <@nop> for pdf I notice the casper logo
03:18 <@nop> can we change that to nyms logo
03:18 <@nop> for reasons of copyright
03:18 <@mids> sure
03:18 <@nop> and at the bottom
03:18 <@nop> I will send you guys a powered by InvisibleNet
03:18 <@nop> which is us
03:18 <@nop> logo
03:18 <@nop> to put at bottom of page
03:18 <@nop> :)
03:18 <@codeshark> nop: the existing pdf is just a test anyway
03:18 <@nop> yes
03:18 <@nop> I understand
03:18 <@nop> I'm just requesting
03:18 <@codeshark> it doesn't use either docbook nor latex
03:19 <@nop> k
03:19 <@nop> well, anyway
03:19 <@nop> that's a yes I assume
03:19 <@codeshark> yes
03:19 <@nop> kewl
03:20 <@mids> I converted the whole v1.1.2-pre9 doc; its on http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/docdemo/
03:20 <@mids> take a look
03:20 <@mids> it has the *.tex sourcefiles
03:20 <@mids> the Makefile
03:20 <@mids> and all the outputs... pdf, ps, dvi, txt, html and bightml
03:20 <@nop> mids
03:20 <@nop> you also have a sourceforge account
03:20 <@mids> about chm: why does chm suck?
03:20 <@nop> you have rights to make directories on the website
03:20 <@nop> so that they can be there as well
03:20 <@mids> nop: I know
03:20 <@nop> ok
03:20 <@nop> kewl
03:21 <@mids> chm sucks because it is a proprietary microsoft format
03:21 <@mids> there are no good opensource tools for it
03:21 <@codeshark> nop: these are just experiments right now. that's why they're not on the sf server
03:21 <@mids> the chm viewer for *nix is just a hard to use extractor
03:21 <@mids> nobody uses windows help files anyway
03:21 <@nop> ok
03:21 <@mids> :)
03:21 <@codeshark> hehe )
03:21 <@codeshark> :)
03:21 <@nop> mids
03:21 <@nop> it's helpful for win32 users
03:22 <@nop> and I say we can use it for help systray option
03:22 <@mids> you can also put the pdf file in the IIP dir or the html ones
03:22 <@nop> yes
03:22 <@mids> and start the browser in the systray option
03:22 <@nop> umm
03:22 <@nop> trust me .chm looks nice in windows
03:22 <@codeshark> sure, but do you have a chapter list in html?
03:22 <@nop> so stick with that for win32
03:22 <@mids> I am not against CHM for IIP, I am just not going to do it
03:22 <@nop> cs will
03:22 <@nop> no worries
03:22 <@codeshark> aehm
03:23 <@codeshark> there's a small problem
03:23 <@mids> have fun codeshark :P
03:23 <@nop> uhh
03:23 <@codeshark> i don't want to have 2 version of the docs like we have now
03:23 <@nop> sup?
03:23 <@nop> umm
03:23 <@nop> maybe we can make chm a separate doc
03:23 <@nop> :)
03:23 <@codeshark> that's how it is now
03:23 <@codeshark> chm and pdf are seperate
03:23 <@nop> that's all I'm saying
03:23 <@nop> welcome back userx
03:23 <@codeshark> but that's not how it should be
03:23 <@codeshark> right mis?
03:23 <@codeshark> mids?
03:23 <@mids> right
03:24 <@codeshark> what are the possibilities?
03:24 <@nop> chm is a nice plus
03:24 <@codeshark> 1) use docbook,...
03:24 <@nop> one
03:24 <@nop> not everyone has pdf viewers
03:24 <@nop> chm for win32 is built in
03:24 <@codeshark> 2) use latex and try to create the chm's from the htmls
03:24 <@codeshark> 3) manually synchronize chm and html
03:24 <@codeshark> 4) drop chm support
03:25 <@nop> x on 4
03:25 <@mids> 5) make a light chm with only the menu functions explained
03:25 <@nop> hopefully x 3
03:25 <@nop> yes
03:25 <@nop> that's what I was thinkign
03:25 <@nop> 5
03:25 <@mids> (manually)
03:25 <@nop> like a man page
03:25 <@nop> :)
03:25 <@Chocolate> eavryon on win will have a web browser
03:25 <@mids> and link it for more info to the full doc as html, pdf , dvi, ps whatever
03:25 <@nop> sounds good
03:25 <@Chocolate> you should be able to generate an index page from the LaTeX/docbook
03:25 <@codeshark> ok, i'll look at it
03:25 <@nop> ok
03:26 <@nop> is that it for docs?
03:26 <@mids> no
03:26 <@nop> ok
03:26 <@nop> sorry
03:26 <@mids> still pieces of doc should be written on the unix part
03:26 <@nop> continue
03:26 <@nop> also man page
03:26 <@nop> is that completed
03:26 <@mids> its still missing in the current one, cohesions work didnt have it
03:26 <@nop> and symbolicly link iip with isproxy
03:26 <@nop> like man iip
03:26 <@mids> man page is in CVS for weeks
03:26 <@nop> will give man isproxy
03:26 <@mids> nobody commented on it, so I assume it is perfect
03:26 <@nop> ok
03:26 <@nop> nice
03:27 <@nop> UserX
03:27 <@nop> will IIP as is auto-install man pages
03:27 <@codeshark> nop: does it have "make install" yet?
03:27 <@nop> he might be having connectivity issues
03:27 <@nop> yes
03:27 <@mids> hairy topic
03:28 <@nop> the concern is upgrading relay node users
03:28 <@mids> location of manpages is really system dependant
03:28 <@nop> right
03:28 < UserX> make install should install the man page
03:28 <@codeshark> yeah, they have to manually upgrade from rc1 to rc2
03:28 <@mids> configure in 1.2 will fix that
03:28 <@nop> ok
03:29 -!- mode/#iip-dev [+o UserX] by mids
03:29 <@nop> userx hasn't identified - policy
03:29 <@nop> no ops to unidentified users
03:29 <@nop> ok
03:29 <@nop> spoken late
03:29 <@mids> The nickname userx is registered and identified
03:29 <@nop> :)
03:29 <@nop> I am really lagging
03:29 <@mids> np
03:29 <@nop> I still have it saying that it's not
03:30 <@nop> ok
03:30 <@nop> continue
03:30 <@mids> I am finished with my part of docs
03:30 <@nop> cs
03:30 <@nop> what did you mean they have to manually upgrade
03:30 <@codeshark> hmm
03:30 <@codeshark> docbook vs latex? ;)
03:30 <@mids> latex short term, docbook long term?
03:31 <@codeshark> output of both formats is ok (except missing chm support of latex)
03:31 <@nop> I just want to make sure installer sees already known node.ref and listen.ref in there
03:31 <@nop> as well as isproxy.ini
03:31 <@nop> cohesion needs to get on the unix stuff
03:31 <@codeshark> nop: windows?
03:31 <@mids> mind you that we also have 2 translatins
03:31 <@nop> yes
03:31 <@nop> obviously as long as we don't include our own isproxy.ini, node.ref or listen.ref for unix
03:32 <@nop> we should be fine
03:32 <@nop> we might want to have a blurb in doc about upgrading
03:32 <@nop> to install in same directory
03:32 <@nop> for upgraded node
03:32 <@nop> or import your .ref and .ini files
03:32 <@nop> etc
03:32 <@nop> to be discussed later
03:32 <@mids> .
03:32 <@nop> agenda list please
03:33 <@mids> - Welcome (nop)
03:33 <@mids> - Status of developers / projects (nop)
03:33 <@mids> - Website (nym)
03:33 <@mids> - Release Roadmap
03:33 <@mids> - Documentation (cohesion, codeshark, mids)
03:33 <@mids> - Question Round
03:33 <@nop> ok
03:33 <@nop> question round
03:33 <@nop> any questions
03:33 <@codeshark> nop: i think i'm already handling the upgrading stuff. but i have to check
03:33 <@nop> ok
03:33 <@mids> why is not everybody here?
03:33 <@nop> thnx cs
03:33 <@codeshark> we looked at it on rc1 already
03:33 <@nop> answer : real life
03:33 <@nop> :)
03:33 <@nop> ok
03:33 <@mids> is this time correct or need a better one?
03:34 <@nop> so far it's not conflicting
03:34 <@mids> (it took 1:30 hours now_
03:34 <@nop> well
03:34 <@nop> this is a first meeting
03:34 <@nop> so I can see why
03:34 <@nop> we'll get better
03:34 <@codeshark> well a bit earlier would be nice
03:34 <@nop> and shorter
03:34 <@nop> :)
03:34 <@codeshark> if possible
03:34 <@nop> the conflict with that
03:34 <@mids> yes, please
03:34 <@nop> hmm
03:34 <@nop> I can't do too much earlier
03:34 <@codeshark> it's 4 am soon :(
03:34 <@mids> 1 hour shorter would be fine
03:34 <@codeshark> yeah, right
03:35 <@nop> hmm
03:35 <@mids> more q's?
03:36 <@codeshark> mids: what is cohesion doing right now?
03:36 <@nop> let's try this for a bit, and see if it's workable
03:36 <@codeshark> on the docs?
03:36 <@nop> dunno
03:36 <@mids> codeshark: dont ask me
03:36 <@nop> he needs to work on contact
03:36 <@mids> btw 1 yodel for everybody attending this meeting
03:36 <@nop> thnx
03:36 <@nop> :)
03:36 <@codeshark> hehe, thanks mids :)
03:37 <@codeshark> btw: right now we have 4 systems to create help files :(
03:37 <@nop> closing
03:38 <@mids> I will leave the log running for a couple of hours
03:38 <@mids> its available on that url
03:38 <@nop> meeting ajouned, thank you for all attending
03:38 <@nop> see you next week
03:38 <@codeshark> same time, same place?
03:38 <@nop> yes
03:39 <@nop> thnx all
03:39  * nop will brb after these messages
03:39  * codeshark will go to sleep soon
03:39 <@mids> night
03:46 <@nop> night
03:47 <+logger> Ended logging
--- Log closed Wed May 22 03:47:55 2002