--- Log opened Tue Sep 03 23:55:46 2002
23:56 <@mids> test
--- Day changed Wed Sep 04 2002
00:34 < athena> hello :)
00:34 < athena> no specific agenda today?
00:36 -!- mode/#iip-dev [+o nop] by mids
00:36 -!- mode/#iip-dev [+v logger] by mids
00:36 <@mids> not yet atleast
00:55 < athena> OQP... cute :)
00:56 <@mids> what is OQP?
00:56 < athena> occupe', i'm guessing
00:56 <@mids> ic
00:58 < gabierOQP> OQP=occupé in french
00:58 < gabierOQP> busy
00:58 -!- gabierOQP is now known as legabier
00:59 <@mids> compris
01:00 <@mids> Tue Sep  3 23:00:00 UTC 2002
01:00 <@mids> Welcome to the 10th IIP meeting
01:00 <@mids> Agenda:
01:00 <@mids> 1) Welcome
01:00 <@mids> 2) Website status update
01:00 <@mids> 3) ...
01:00 <@mids> a) Questions
01:00 <@mids> .
01:00 <@mids> lets go to point 1
01:00 <@mids> welcome all
01:00 < legabier> why freenet is so slow and iip so fast?
01:01 <@mids> legabier: can we keep that till part a ?
01:01 < legabier> ok
01:01 <@mids> part 2
01:01 <@mids> nop: status update?
01:02 <@mids> hm
01:02 <@mids> the website is in CVS
01:02 <@mids> nop has reviewed the files
01:03 <@mids> but there are some parts without good text
01:03 <@mids> and the support area needs a better layout
01:03 <@mids> appart from that it is done
01:03 <@mids> I wont tell you when the site is up
01:03 <@mids> but you are free to do private bettings on the online time :)
01:04 <@mids> .
01:04 <@mids> nop probably has something to add
01:04 <@mids> lets wait 3 min or something
01:06 < athena> lol
01:06 <@mids> I guess nop is too busy with editing the website to answer
01:06 <@mids> okay well...
01:06 <@mids> before we go to the question round.. any other items we should discuss?
01:08 <@mids> guess not :-)
01:08 <@mids> I like it when everybody agrees :)
01:08 <@mids> .
01:08 <@mids> question from legabier: "why freenet is so slow and iip so fast?"
01:08 <@mids> freenet is a different program, there is no technical relationship between IIP and Freenet
01:08 <@mids> Freenet is completely decentralized.. IIP isn't (yet)
01:08 <@nop> haha
01:09 <@mids> Freenet is intended for file transfer, while IRC over IIP uses short lines
01:09 <@nop> just because freenet is decentralized
01:09 <@nop> is not the reason why IIP is fast
01:09 <@mids> well, enlighten us, o master yoda :)
01:10 <@nop> differences
01:10 <@nop> freenet == high volume, low speed, static (archived) content
01:10 <@nop> iip == low volume, high speed, dynamic content
01:10 <@nop> different concepts all together, centralized or decentralized, IIP will remain fast
01:11  * mids hopes that too
01:11  * nop knows that
01:11 <@mids> ok
01:11 <@mids> does that answer your question legabier ? 
01:12 < legabier> yes merci :)
01:13  * mids aims the spotlight in the audience.. searching for the next question and/or comment
01:13 < athena> why are there so few public relays (besides the ones nop runs and mids', i see only 2 or 3 others usually)?  do we have no volunteers or does the uptime checker reject a lot of them?
01:13 < Sheige> I got 8 of them.... I guess
01:14 < Sheige> (still a few)
01:14 < athena> how many is that if you don't count mids' and nop's?
01:14 <@mids> 5
01:14 <@mids> source: http://invisiblenet.net/iip/crypto/node.ref
01:15 < athena> hmmm, ok... guess i need to pull down a new one... still, 20 or so public nodes would be nice :)
01:15 <@mids> I _think_ that the uptime checker is a bit too strict
01:16 <@mids> codeshark had to pause it some time ago when the net was down
01:16 <@mids> otherwise it would kick all relays out
01:17 <@nop> the strict checking is a good thing
01:17 <@nop> you'd have more problems if you had a lot of relays not working
01:17 <@nop> it's better to have lower number with solid relay connection
01:17 <@mids> nop: well.. but the reannounces dont seem to work
01:17 <@nop> than a bunch of crappy ones
01:17 <@nop> yes they do
01:17 <@mids> hm
01:17 <@nop> it just takes time
01:17 <@nop> plus if you're a relay you won't see your route
01:17 <@mids> then why do we only have 7 :)
01:17 <@nop> because the stability of the relays
01:18 <@nop> it may take a few more days for them to show up
01:20 <@nop> talk to codeshark about this
01:20 <@nop> he would have more detail
01:20 <@nop> I will test it with him
01:20 <@mids> ok
01:21 <@mids> I think that I have somehow too many nodes connecting to my relay
01:21 <@mids> but maybe there are a lot more users then we know about :)
01:21 < athena> how many connections do you have?
01:22 <@mids> I dont know if I should tell that
01:22  * mids does some back channel talking
01:22 < athena> could be that you're the best reachable relay
01:22 <@mids> heh, I wouldnt say that with the recent lack of stability
01:22 < athena> i often find that i can't connect through half of the hosts in node.ref
01:23 < athena> and when you start with 7 that's not a whole lot of reliable relays
01:23 <@nop> well, most usually are that are on
01:23 < athena> just relating my experience...
01:24 <@nop> maybe it's recent
01:25 <@mids> it would be interesting to measure uptime...
01:25 <@mids> but...
01:25 < athena> you'd have to measure it from topologically diverse sites
01:27 <@mids> nop: would you be against that?
01:27 <@mids> if this whole thing wasn't about anonymity, I would love to see a lot of statistics :)
01:27 <@nop> umm, if it exposes attacking info, yes
01:28 <@nop> maybe we'll set up a non-anonymous weary system later and take stats
01:28 < athena> i would say any publicly available stats SHOULD be published
01:28 <@nop> especially as it gets bigger
01:28 < athena> rely on the security of IIP, not on keeping info secret
01:28 <@nop> well athena, if anyone was taking stats, they should be published
01:28 <@nop> but no one is so far
01:28 <@nop> anyone who is please publish your findings
01:28 <@nop> ;)
01:29 < athena> maybe i will :p
01:29 <@mids> well.. I'll try to collect stats in a 'fair' way
01:29 <@mids> without abusing my public node-powers
01:29 <@mids> what I can collect that way, everybody can
01:29 < athena> that's exactly what i meant, great
01:30 < ArdVark> why not abuse your public node power and show us what that entails too mids?
01:30 <@mids> now if I disappear from the IIP chat system... it is because someone doesnt like me collecting the stats ;)
01:30 <@mids> ArdVark: maybe that is the next step...
01:30 < athena> ArdVark: lol, excellent point!  since anyway can become a public node...
01:31 < athena> s/anyway/anyone/
01:31 <@mids> athena: install a public relay and you do it :)
01:31 < ArdVark> I wanna see the failures as well as the successes of this beast reported
01:32 <@mids> would be cool to have 100 'agencies' all running a public relay to log connections, but in the meanwhile helping to boost the anonymity
01:33 < ArdVark> on a different topic, not to end the current one, has there ever been any thought to adding wiki to invisiblnet?  or too much trouble?
01:33 <@mids> wiki as in wikiwiki?
01:33 < ArdVark> yes
01:33 <@mids> those $#@&%@ infobots are already some wiki
01:33 < athena> mids: how do you know i don't already run a public relay ;)
01:34 < ArdVark> I love those infobots mids   ;)
01:34 <@mids> ArdVark: I know you do
01:34 <@mids> ArdVark: if you put a webserver 'behind' IIP.. then you could install a wiki on it
01:35 < ArdVark> ok, that is reasonable I guess
01:35 <@mids> but running a webserver over irc isnt too great
01:35 < ArdVark> no I meant the website
01:35 <@mids> oh
01:35 <@mids> you mean on the normal website
01:35 < ArdVark> yes
01:36 <@mids> guess you could do that
01:36 <@mids> otoh.. you could use a public wiki too....
01:36 < ArdVark> ok
01:37 <@mids> I think we shouldnt really install the wiki on sourceforge.... not now
01:37 <@mids> since it is some work to install/tweak etc
01:38 <@mids> but someone could run a wiki, and then IIP could point to it
01:38 < ArdVark> fine
01:39 <@mids> ArdVark: but maybe a public wiki for IIP (like freenet has now) is the way to go
01:39 <@mids> .
01:39 < ArdVark> yeah ok  
01:41 <@mids> I am going to sleep. feel free to keep chatting here :)
01:41 < athena> night mids
01:49 <@mids> for those who want to play with a wiki: http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/phpwiki/
01:49 <@mids> I dont care what you do with it :)
02:00 -!- mode/#iip-dev [+o codeshark] by Trent
--- Log closed Wed Sep 04 07:03:17 2002