--- Log opened Wed Sep 25 00:57:27 2002
00:57 -!- Topic for #iip-dev: IIP meeting | logs: http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iip/ 
00:57 [Users #iip-dev]
00:57 [@mids] [ Dag] [ logger] [ nemesis] [ nop] [ Zwolly] 
00:57 -!- Irssi: #iip-dev: Total of 6 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 5 normal]
00:57 -!- Irssi: Join to #iip-dev was synced in 1 secs
00:58 -!- mode/#iip-dev [+v logger] by mids
01:00 <@mids> Tue Sep 24 23:00:38 UTC 2002
01:00 <@mids> welcome et all
01:00 <@mids> the 12th meeting just started 
01:01 <@mids> agenda:
01:01 <@mids> 1) website
01:01 <@mids> 2) nop's messages
01:01 <@mids> 3) question round
01:01 <@mids> website:
01:01 <@mids> new invisibleNET site online - http://www.invisiblenet.net/ - new IIP site online - http://www.invisiblenet.net/iip/
01:02 <@mids> for those who just joined:
01:02 <@mids> new invisibleNET site online - http://www.invisiblenet.net/ - new IIP site online - http://www.invisiblenet.net/iip/
01:02 <@mids> geeh
01:02 <@mids> I keep busy
01:02 < nop> ok
01:02 < nop> pause a sec
01:02 <@mids> for those who just joined:
01:02 <@mids> hehe
01:02 < nop> just add it to topic
01:03 < nop> ok
01:03 < nop> go
01:03 < nop> ;(
01:03 -!- mids changed the topic of #iip-dev to: IIP meeting | logs: http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iip/ | new invisibleNET site online - http://www.invisiblenet.net/ - new IIP site online - http://www.invisiblenet.net/iip/
01:03 < nop> ;)
01:03 <@mids> .
01:04 -!- mode/#iip-dev [+o nop] by mids
01:05 <@mids> any questions about this topic? otherwise we'll go to #2
01:06 <@nop> ok
01:06 <@nop> thanks to ellison
01:07 <@nop> and the distributedcity crew
01:07 <@nop> for helping out
01:07 <@nop> with the website
01:07 <@nop> we owe them a lot now ;)
01:07 <@nop> ok
01:07 <@nop> rc2 is coming out tomorrow
01:07 <@nop> we're just packaging it up
01:07 <@nop> and getting it ready for release
01:07 <@nop> new features
01:07 <@nop> are Forward Security
01:08 <@nop> Close Delay protocol for killed connections
01:08 <@nop> some bug fixes
01:08 <@nop> and upgrade features for future versions
01:08 <@nop> I think that's about it
01:08 <@nop> thank you all you users
01:08 <@nop> that use IIP
01:08 <@nop> without you
01:08 <@nop> the project would be a waste
01:08 <@nop> ;)
01:09 <@nop> so thank all of you for your loyalty and support by using the software
01:09 <@nop> I think that's it for my daily comments ;)
01:09 <@nop> oh
01:09 <@nop> wait
01:09 <@nop> thank you mids
01:09 <@nop> for assisting me with the website setup
01:09 <@nop> and for being patient with me
01:09 <@nop> thank you codeshark
01:09 <@nop> for setting up the software
01:09 <@mids> your welcome :)
01:09 <@nop> and handling inform
01:09 <@nop> thank you userx wherever you ar
01:10 <@nop> are
01:10 <@nop> for your hard work on core development
01:10 <@nop> and putting up with my ranting ;)
01:10 <@nop> thanks to chocolate
01:10 <@nop> for the informity and scripts that are needed
01:10 <@nop> thanks to cohesion even though long gone, for documentation in the past
01:10 <@nop> umm, like to thank the academy ... j/k
01:11 <@nop> everyone who has contributed thank you all
01:11 <@nop> .
01:11 <@mids> 3 hurrays for nop
01:11 <@mids> hurray
01:11 < Zwolly> hurray
01:11 < thecrypto> huzzah
01:11 <@nop> haha
01:11 < athena> that's 2 hurrays and 1 huzzah
01:11 <@nop> oh and DC people have been whispering in my ear to thank the Lord
01:11 <@nop> ;)
01:12 < Neo> lol
01:12 <@nop> well, on a side note, thank life for it is a neat thing ;) <-- no comments
01:12 <@nop> .
01:13 <@nop> any questions
01:13 <@nop> suggestions
01:13 <@nop> review
01:13 <@nop> ideas
01:13 <@nop> etc
01:13 < Neo> congratulations on the new site, looks great.
01:13 <@nop> ?
01:13 <@nop> thnx
01:13 <@mids> what is forward security?
01:13 <@nop> encryption can only be decrypted at time of session
01:13 <@nop> aka, you can't replay the messages
01:13 <@nop> and decrypt them
01:14 <@nop> as that key and signature doesn't exist anymore
01:14 <@nop> and will not be useful
01:14 <@nop> this is designed against log and replay attacks
01:14 <@nop> .
01:14 <@mids> thx
01:14 < athena> will you require public proxies to support these new protocol additions? (methinks all proxies should be forced to upgrade)
01:14 <@nop> athena
01:14 <@nop> it's a mandatory upgrade
01:14 <@nop> all relay holders
01:14 <@nop> will need to upgrade
01:15 <@nop> to rc2 relay
01:15 <@nop> and re-announce
01:15 < athena> ok, thanks
01:16 < sferic> I guess I cam ein late and missed something, but do you mean that we can't log anymore?
01:16 <@nop> no
01:16 <@nop> you can log
01:16 <@nop> what I'm saying
01:16 <@nop> is
01:16 <@nop> if you were a gov't agent
01:16 <@nop> spying on a relay
01:16 <@nop> and you were logging the encrypted traffic
01:16 <@nop> you couldn't then come and seize the ircd end node
01:16 <@nop> and use the network secret key
01:16 <@nop> to replay the traffic
01:16 <@nop> and decrypt it
01:17 < sferic> Ahh, thanks
01:17 <@nop> it eliminates the importance of the network secret key
01:17 <@nop> it's useless
01:17 <@nop> all it does is authenticate
01:17 <@nop> nothing more
01:17 <@nop> doesn't actually encrypt
01:17 <@nop> this covers two things
01:17 <@nop> man in the middle attack protection
01:17 <@nop> and log and relay protection
01:17 <@nop> aka forward security
01:17 <@nop> ;)
01:17 < Zwolly> is it now without central server.
01:18 <@nop> not yet
01:18 <@nop> that's 1.22
01:18 <@nop> 1.2
01:18 <@nop> correction
01:18 <@nop> 1.2.0 to be exact
01:18 <@nop> ;)
01:18 <@nop> after 1.1 basically is finished
01:18 <@mids> (I'd say that decentralization is 2.0)
01:19 < Zwolly> how about system resources memory cpu and bandwith
01:19 <@nop> well, 2.0 is a more perfect form of decentralization
01:19 <@nop> 1.2 we will attempt decentralization
01:20 < Tanthrix> how does true p2p work, you can't exactly scan IP blocks until you find someone? isn't some sort of a central server neccessary for initial connection?
01:20 <@nop> bootstrap is needed
01:20 <@nop> but once connected
01:20 <@nop> you have your own peer routes
01:20 <@nop> so we include a small node.ref
01:20 <@nop> which connects you in
01:20 <@nop> then from that point
01:20 < athena> thanthrix: find some friends you trust and trade node.refs :)
01:20 <@nop> you are dynamically updated from the network
01:21 <@nop> yes
01:21 <@nop> that's the idea
01:21 <@nop> in a nice world
01:21 <@nop> ;)
01:21 < Tanthrix> hehehe
01:21 <@mids> what if you dont have friends?
01:21 <@nop> then try to trust the signature on our software ;)
01:21 <@nop> haha
01:21 <@nop> yeah right, digital trust is rarely possible
01:22 < Dag> trust no one
01:22 < Dag> heh
01:22 < athena> awww...i'll be your friends, mids!
01:22 <@mids> hurray
01:22 < athena> huzzah
01:22 < Tanthrix> and grey-eyed athena comes to the rescue..
01:22 <@nop> hehe
01:22 <@nop> this website kicks ass
01:22 <@nop> far difference then the previous one
01:23 <@mids> kinda :)
01:23 <@nop> umm
01:23 <@nop> yeah
01:23 <@nop> that nice little under construction site sucked ass
01:24 < Tanthrix> heh..the new invisiblenet site looks like a page for some web-based corporation
01:25 <@mids> thanks... I guess :)
01:25  * mids points at ellison ... he is the one to blame; he gets all fame
01:25 < Tanthrix> hehehe
01:25  * ellison hides under some eye candy in the corner
01:26 < Zwolly> what is the gues about how stable it will be 
01:26 <@mids> Zwolly: Trent is running on a rc2 relay for 2 days now
01:26 <@mids> without trouble
01:27 < Zwolly> ok.
01:27 <@mids> trent is the irc client/service with the heaviest traffic
01:27 <@mids> so... I think it is okay
01:27 < Zwolly> we will see
01:27 <@nop> the reason
01:27 < Zwolly> is it tomorrow already? hehe
01:28 <@nop> for the middle of the road
01:28 <@nop> corporate looking site
01:28 <@nop> is called steganography
01:28 <@nop> ;)
01:28 <@nop> our evil black hat activities
01:28 <@nop> wouldn't be good
01:28 <@nop> if it's obvious
01:28 <@nop> we're evil
01:28 <@nop> now would it
01:29 <@nop> so we blend in with the other evil
01:29 <@nop> and they won't notice us
01:29 <@nop> ;)
01:29 <@nop> honestly though
01:29 <@nop> it's just for attracting all audiences
01:29 <@mids> in 2 month there will be an invisibleNET sponsored golf tournament
01:29 <@nop> hahaha
01:30 <@nop> oh and the palladium efforts
01:30 <@nop> we bought it out
01:30 <@nop> ;)
01:31 <@nop> if you've noticed
01:31 <@nop> we own www.invisiblenet.net, www.invisiblenet.com, and www.invisiblenet.org
01:31 <@nop> we're evil
01:31 <@nop> ;)
01:31 <@nop> we've monopolized the market
01:31 <@nop> we're bastards
01:31 < Dag> what about getting one of those signs on the highway for cleaning up the roadside?
01:31 <@nop> yeah
01:31 <@nop> that's in the works
01:31 <@nop> as well as OEM'ing with Microsucks, and Intel
01:32 <@nop> haha
01:32 <@mids> euh
01:32 <@mids> you okay nop? :)
01:32 < Zwolly> ok other question what to do if there are warez channels and some big stupid country lets say america for example want this network doun can it run on its own from the european nodes
01:32 <@nop> yeah
01:32 <@nop> yes
01:32 <@nop> it will be possible to do that
01:33 <@nop> plus
01:33 <@nop> I advise for all warez activity
01:33 < Dag> I thought there was no /dcc 
01:33 < Dag> in here
01:33 <@nop> to use a !anonymous mode channel
01:33 <@nop> doesn't mean you can't trade ftp sites
01:33 < Dag> well
01:33 <@nop> then for anyone monitoring
01:33 <@nop> who is saying what
01:33 < Dag> google trades warez ftp sites
01:33 <@nop> is a bit more tricky
01:33 <@nop> ;)
01:33 <@nop> exactly
01:33 < Dag> so does the newsgroups
01:33 <@nop> I doubt that we're a threat to that
01:33 < Dag> er do
01:33 <@nop> our main concern is #pedophilia public channels
01:34 < Dag> I did a /list one day
01:34 <@nop> as they would be a concerned threat to the existance of IIP as a whole
01:34 < Dag> and saw that channel in the list
01:34 <@mids> nah
01:34 < Dag> was a month or so ago
01:34 <@mids> I wouldnt be too affraid about that
01:34 <@nop> I like as little trouble as possible while were developing
01:34 <@mids> this is pure text based
01:34 <@nop> true
01:34 < nemesis> k
01:34 < nemesis> brb
01:35  * nemesis  decides to go out and tar the way to the loung ()ŻŻŻŻ)ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ)))~~~~
01:35 < Dag> freenet has been overwhelmed with that crap
01:35 < Dag> at least last time I used frost
01:35 < Dag> it was a VERY high percentage of that crap on there
01:35 < athena> comes with the territory
01:35 < Dag> I think it would be good for people to spam freenet with random non porn images and media files
01:36 <@nop> yeah
01:36 <@nop> it's unfortunate
01:36 < Dag> just to make the percentage of crap go down
01:36 <@mids> I am using freenet for 3 or 4 years now and I have never seen any pedo crap...
01:36 <@nop> I accidentally downloaded trash on my hardrive because of their shit
01:36 <@nop> sickening
01:36 <@nop> I found one
01:36 <@mids> if you dont look for it, I dont think you will run into much
01:36 <@nop> by accident
01:36 <@nop> not true
01:36 <@nop> stuff gets renamed stuf
01:37 < Dag> mids I just had frost list all the files available
01:37 < Dag> as there are not many
01:37 < Dag> maybe a few hundred files max
01:37 < Dag> its not like gnutella
01:37 <@mids> well, if you view each of them.. you will probably run into stuff
01:37 < Dag> I didnt download anything
01:37 <@mids> but I have no reason to view a msc0001a.jpg
01:38 < Dag> I just saw the listings
01:38 < ellison> you guys seen www.bitzi.com?
01:38 < Dag> no
01:38 < Dag> isnt that some spyware
01:38 < ellison> it is a database of tons of files on p2p networks
01:38 < athena> no
01:38 <@nop> mids
01:38 < athena> the fingerprint mp3s
01:38 <@nop> check iip-dev
01:38 < ellison> you can enter a filename and size, and it'll tell you what it is
01:38 <@nop> this can't be true
01:38 <@nop> we have a few debian users
01:38 <@mids> nop: iip-dev email?
01:38 <@nop> yes
01:38 < Dag> ellison who is funding it?
01:39 < ellison> dag: dunno
01:40 < Dag> ellison I would bet its the riaa
01:40 < ellison> "Bitzi is a privately-held metadata publishing company based in San Francisco."
01:40 < Dag> or some such org
01:40 < Dag> ellision who pays the bills
01:40 < Dag> follow the $$$$$
01:40 < ellison> doubt it, I think you can use their service to differentiate between valid media files and the fake stuff uploaded by RIAA
01:41 < ellison> the founder posted on a RIAA thread and mentioned this use of the system
01:41 < Dag> find out who funds it
01:41 < ellison> i brought up their site because it seems to be a good way of avoiding nasty re-named stuff
01:41 < athena> bitzi is cool... their stuff is opensource
01:41 < Dag> one thing is certain in this day and age
01:41 < ellison> there's no reason you couldn't submit freenet files to the service
01:42 < ellison> dag: there would be concern if there was any evidence that they are funded by the RIAA, but it doesn't look like it to me
01:42 < Dag> ellison a md5->file content database
01:42 < Dag> would maybe work
01:42 < Dag> but can be abused as well
01:42 < Dag> its all about who controlls the data
01:43  * athena controls the data
01:43 < Dag> mallicous people can change the file slightly anyhow
01:43 < ellison> if course there is an issue of trust, but if you don't trust anyone then it'll be difficult to take part in a service-based economy...
01:43 < ellison> then the signature would change
01:44 < Dag> yes
01:44 < Dag> I am addressing your wanting to avoid known bad files
01:44 < ellison> if lots of people use bitzi, then all it takes is one person downloading and reporting a bad file
01:45 < Dag> I could write a gnutella server to on the fly randomly tag on some byte
01:45 < Dag> to a file
01:45 < ellison> and bitzi will be a more and more valuable service as the RIAA begins seeding P2P networks w/ crap...
01:45 < Dag> and change the file sig each time
01:45 < athena> bitzi is being integrated into limewire
01:45 < ellison> people could go to bitzi and find out which files are the good ones, and only download those
01:45 < Dag> I think that the riaa would find the service more usefull than not
01:46 < Dag> they are doing the riaas job for them
01:46 < ellison> it's also about finding the good ones - avoiding the bad ones is just 1/2 of the process
01:46 < Dag> finding keys to stuff they own
01:46 <@mids> hey aum 
01:46 < aum> hi mids
01:47 <@nop> aum
01:47 <@nop> it's most likely
01:47 <@nop> the dh key exchange
01:47 <@nop> maybe handshaking with a bad or out of date node, or so
01:47 < aum> the max-out doesn't happen when i run iip as root
01:47 < aum> only when i run as user
01:47 <@nop> interesting
01:47 < athena> huh?
01:47 <@nop> have you checked your file descriptors for users
01:47 <@nop> how many are allowed and such?
01:48 < aum> well, all the files are owned by the same user as is running the daemno
01:48 < aum> it's a severe max-out when i run as user - a 1.5GHz box grinds to a halt - even the mouse can barely move
01:49 < Zwolly> people i need to go now it was fun and will install the new IIP as soon as possible (working at 7.00)
01:49 < aum> compliments on the new website nop
01:49 <@nop> thnx, thank ellison
01:50 <@nop> he did it
01:50 <@nop> ;)
01:50 < aum> it looks so professional that one could expect to go to the download page, and see a link saying 'download 30-day demo'
01:50 < aum> free software websites are rarely designed so professionally
01:50 <@mids> :)
01:50 <@nop> nor are they documented so well either
01:51 <@mids> nor do they have such cool irc channels
01:51 <@nop> we have kind of put the profesionallism back into open source ;)
01:51 <@nop> I spelled that badly
01:51 <@nop> haha
01:51 < aum> the word 'free' needs to appear on the front page IMO
01:51 <@nop> Professionalism
01:51 <@nop> it says open 
01:51 <@nop> and available
01:51 <@nop> etc
01:51 < aum> the word 'open' is being used more and more with commercial software
01:51 <@nop> well, if people don't read
01:51 <@nop> they can't be educated
01:52 <@nop> and they shouldn't be running IIP anyway
01:52 < ellison> :-)
01:53 < aum> i saw a freaky film the other night - 'fight club'
01:53 <@nop> finally?
01:53 <@nop> haha
01:53 <@nop> read the book
01:53 <@nop> it's worse
01:53 < aum> wow!
01:53 <@mids> night all
01:53 < aum> good concept - taking down the credit card databases
01:53 < aum> night mids
01:53 < ellison> night mids
01:54 <@nop> night mids
01:54 <@nop> thnx again
01:54 <@nop> for your help
01:54 < nemesis> gn8 mids
01:54  * aum wonders if iip can take advantage of palladium features
01:55  * nop wonders what aum means by that
01:55 < aum> palladium could be a huge boon for p2p
01:55 <@nop> yes
01:55 <@nop> did you get my ip stego app?
01:55 < aum> palladium creates a private task space that not even root can access
01:55 < aum> back in 5...
01:55 <@nop> k
02:02 <@nop> ok
02:02 < aum> back
02:02 <@nop> wb 
02:03 < aum> palladium can help piracy
02:03 < Dag> anyone here run vmware?
02:03 <@nop> I'm not convinced that palladium will be secure against the security researchers of the world
02:03 < aum> yes
02:03 <@nop> I do
02:03 <@nop> I run it 
02:03 < aum> ditto
02:03 < Dag> how good a sandbox is it?
02:03 <@nop> great
02:03 < aum> brilliant
02:03 <@nop> I use it for my windows stuff
02:03 < Dag> that is my only real interest for it
02:03 <@nop> while running linux as the main one
02:03 <@nop> oh yeah
02:03 < Dag> is a sandbox potentia;
02:04 <@nop> yes
02:04 <@nop> it's great
02:04 <@nop> easy to set up too
02:04 < aum> beautiful thing about vmware is that you can choose to discard all disk changes
02:04 < Dag> well
02:04 < Dag> i imagine it leaks data to the swap
02:04 < aum> so if you install some windows fuckware, it's easy to get rid of it without having to hunt through c:\windows and registry etc
02:04 < Dag> well yes
02:05 < Dag> just delete the install
02:05 < Dag> I keep a good install file
02:05 < Dag> that has nothing on it
02:05 < aum> i like how vers 3 does usb
02:06 < Dag> its an amazing little app
02:06 < Dag> wish it was open sourced
02:06 < Dag> I looked at some open source attemps
02:06 < Dag> at the same thing
02:07 < Dag> and seemed to be stagnating
02:07 < Dag> bochs and the like
02:07 < aum> bochs is a nightmare
02:07 < nemesis> AS/400 are better than vmware ;p
02:08 < Dag> plex86 was another one I think
02:08 < Dag> I have run vmware and ran some tools like filemon and regmon
02:08 < Dag> etc
02:09 < Dag> and they seem to show that its a decent sandbox
02:09 < Dag> its not writting or reading to anything unusual
02:09 < Dag> from waht I saw
02:09 < Dag> winternals software rules
02:09 < Dag> sysinternals/winternals that is
02:10 < Dag> tcpview pro is another of their tools I like
02:10 < Dag> erd commander is another
02:11 < Dag> I am hoping someday soon that linux/bsd can have better ntfs support
02:12 < Dag> read only access (stable) is pretty limiting
02:14 <@nop> I'm so excited
02:14 <@nop> this toorcon speech might get me killed ;)
02:14 < nemesis> hrhr
02:14 < nemesis> nooo nooo
02:15 < nemesis> i linke the read only
02:15 <@nop> sorry
02:15 <@nop> I'm all interrupting
02:15 <@nop> ;)
02:15 < nemesis> because i stored some files in a ntfs5.1 part
02:15 < nemesis> ;)
02:15 < aum> nop - you better have a fast car out the back, and deliver the speech in a ski mask
02:16 <@nop> did you read what I'm talking about
02:16 <@nop> www.toorcon.org
02:16 < aum> actually, a ski mask would be a good gimmick - that, and a throat-mike wired up to a harmoniser box to change your voice
02:16 <@nop> and no I don't care if people know who I am, it's a risk I have to take for starting IIP anyway
02:17 <@nop> haha
02:17 <@nop> I have a friend who's an expert in make-up and disguise
02:17 <@nop> could do that too
02:17 < Dag> nop is it tammy faye"?
02:17 < Dag> katherine harris?
02:17 < aum> room will be fulla spooks
02:18 <@nop> http://www.toorcon.org/speakers/james.html
02:20 <@nop> making gov't irrelevant is the underlying tone
02:21 <@nop> I contradict the keynote speaker
02:21 <@nop> who works for nasa
02:23 < Dag> nasa is evil
02:23 < Dag> richard hoagland says so
02:23 < Dag> they are withholding proof aliens exist
02:24 <@nop> hehe
02:24 < Dag> they bombed the face on mars
02:24 <@nop> aum is quiet
02:24 <@nop> hehe
02:24 < Dag> to cover up that it really looked like a face
02:24 < Dag> even in high res scans
02:25 < Dag> if it were not for nasa, we would each have our own starship cruisers
02:25 < Dag> and vacation planets as we speak
02:25 < Dag> hell they even wont let that backstreet boy
02:25 < Dag> on their stupid space station
02:25 <@nop> haha
02:25 <@nop> nsync but yeah
02:26 < Dag> they dont want him to see who their real masters are
02:26 <@nop> haha
02:26 < Dag> and I dont mean the american taxpayer
02:26 <@nop> yep
02:27 < Dag> the government is not run by the taxpayer
02:27 <@nop> you know what I notice
02:27 <@nop> every corporate position in a company
02:27 < Dag> I think the fairest govt would be one were the number of votes you have is in line with the taxes you pay
02:27 <@nop> is desired by a selfish person
02:27 <@nop> right
02:27 < Dag> maybe 1 vote for each 5k in taxes you pay
02:28 < Dag> the government is run on theft
02:28 < Dag> steal steal steal
02:29 < Dag> rms is a commie too
02:29 < Dag> did you know that
02:29 <@nop> that's why they punish drug dealers
02:29 <@nop> because the gov't is stealing the money they make
02:29 <@nop> you notice
02:29 <@nop> they always wait
02:29 <@nop> till the dealer
02:29 <@nop> is making big money
02:29 <@nop> to get their bust
02:29 <@nop> they don't care about the lowly pot dealer
02:29 <@nop> they always like to let it continue
02:29 <@nop> till they know
02:29 < Dag> the us govt is the biggest drug dealer out there
02:29 <@nop> there is serious money coming in
02:30 <@nop> then bam
02:30 <@nop> robbin' from the dealer
02:30 < Dag> bo gritz says so
02:30 < Dag> harry brown for president
02:30 < Dag> enuf said
02:30 <@nop> hehe
02:30 <@nop> charlie brown for president
02:31 < Dag> what about snoopy
02:31 <@nop> he's cool
02:31 <@nop> he doesn't say much
02:31 <@nop> so yeah
02:31 < Dag> he always seemed level headed
02:31 < Dag> cept he hung out with that bird a little to much
02:31 < Dag> charlie brown was easily duped
02:32 < Dag> how many times he try to kick that damn football?
02:33  * aum is back
02:33 < Dag> how big is a freenet install?
02:33 <@nop> not big, 200 megs
02:33 <@nop> for datastore
02:33 <@nop> ;)
02:33 < aum> default freenet datastore is 1GB these days 
02:34 < Dag> yikes
02:34 <@nop> what?
02:34 < aum> on another subject, i uninstalled gentoo last night and went back to debian => bliss
02:34 <@nop> really?
02:34 < aum> the source-based distros are too flaky just now
02:34 < Dag> go back to freebsd
02:35 < Dag> er forward
02:35 < Dag> heh
02:35 < aum> debian 4 me - huge catalog of software, ready to urn
02:35 < aum> s/urn/run/
02:35 < Dag> well you running it as a server or desktop?
02:35 < aum> debian stuff works wight out of the box - no need to read megs of manuals and grope through scripts
02:36 < Dag> I always compile my servers
02:36 < aum> i've had debian woody on my server for over a year - switched desktop from windows back in feb
02:37 < aum> my desktop went windoes -> mandrake -> debian -> sourcemage -> gentoo -> debian
02:37 < Dag> you ever try knoppix?
02:37 < aum> what's that?
02:37 < aum> a distro?
02:37 < Dag> is a livefilesystem linux distro
02:37 < Dag> based off debian
02:37 < aum> huh?
02:37 < aum> what does 'livefilesystem' mean?
02:37 < Dag> the whole thing runs in ram and cd
02:38 < Dag> boot off the cd
02:38 < Dag> and away you go
02:39 < Dag> its pretty good about hw detection
02:39 < Dag> runs kde and even has openoffice
02:39 < Dag> heh
02:39 < Dag> I dont run any linux servers anymore
02:39 < Dag> but its fun to have around
02:39 < aum> Dag: freeBSD?
02:40 < Dag> free/openbsd
02:40 < Dag> solaris
02:40 < aum> what's the big advantage?
02:40 < Dag> depending on HW
02:40 < Dag> openbsd has a good security audit
02:40 < Dag> of anything they release
02:40 < Dag> no distro of linux even comes close
02:41 < aum> but linux 'ploits get fixed within 24 hours
02:41 <@nop> true
02:41 < Dag> do you check for exploits and patch every day?
02:41 <@nop> I do
02:41 < Dag> well
02:41 < Dag> come now
02:41 < Dag> heh
02:41 <@nop> I'm on bugtraq
02:41 <@nop> and I sometimes post
02:41 <@nop> so I keep my eye out
02:42 < Dag> openbsd has had ONE remote exploit in 6 years
02:42 <@nop> it's my daytime job
02:42 <@nop> openBSD is very conscious
02:42 <@nop> which is good
02:42 <@nop> proves
02:42 <@nop> that all it takes
02:42 <@nop> is more conscious coders
02:42 <@nop> and a conscious framework
02:43 < Dag> if you install redhat without patches
02:43 < Dag> its a guarantee you will be hacked
02:43 < Dag> I use to work in a NOC
02:43 < Dag> it would piss me off when other lazy coworkers would install rh 6.2 etc
02:43 < Dag> for a client
02:44 < Dag> and never put any patches on
02:44 < Dag> one guy worked there 3 years and his idea of rebooting a box was to hit the power switch
02:46 < aum> power switch? did he think it was windows?
02:46 < nemesis> lol
02:46  * aum sometimes sees the linux BSOD screensaver
02:47 < Dag> there was a time like 4 years back that anyone could get a tech job
02:47 < Dag> now people who have a brain and experience
02:47 < Dag> cant find sh*t
02:47 < aum> an open source advocate here in new zealand wrote to the Minister for Information Technology expressing concerns about windows security vulnerabilities - Minister wrote back saying "we don't have a security problem - we use firewalls"
02:48 < Dag> you hear the latest with XP and their help center allowing you to delete files by visiting a url
02:48 < Dag> heh
02:48 < Dag> there is a story at the register uk about it
02:49 < Dag> there is even a link to have the exploit remove the help center from your machine
02:49 < Dag> and in doing so removes the ablity to be exploited
02:50 < Dag> Win-XP Help Center request wipes your HD
02:50 < Dag> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/27074.html
03:03 < nemesis> erm, sorry
03:03 < nemesis> question
03:03 < nemesis> can i ban an port with bind to an nic?
04:14 < nemesis> cu@all für genau 50 mins ins bett legen dann duschen und in arbeit fahren *grummel*
08:05 < nop> sheesh
08:05 < nop> still here
--- Log closed Wed Sep 25 10:20:49 2002