--- Log opened Tue Mar 04 23:47:24 2003
23:47 -!- Topic for #iip-dev: IIP Meeting - logfiles: http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iip/
23:47 [Users #iip-dev]
23:47 [ eep] [ jeremiah] [ logger] [ mids] [ nop] [ UserX_] 
23:47 -!- Irssi: #iip-dev: Total of 6 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 6 normal]
23:47 -!- Irssi: Join to #iip-dev was synced in 2 secs
23:48 < LeerokLacerta> Making history.
23:48 < mrflibble> helooo
23:48 < LeerokLacerta> Hello.
23:52 < nop> hi
23:52 < jeremiah> hi
23:53 < nop> hi
23:53 -!- mode/#iip-dev [+o mids] by Trent
23:53 < LeerokLacerta> Konnichiwa.
23:54 < bpb> konnichiwa
23:58 < nop> hi
23:58 <@mids> Hi hezekiah!
23:58 < hezekiah> Hi. :)
23:58 <@mids> *hedgehog sound*
23:58 < hezekiah> lol
23:58 < hezekiah> *orgle*
23:58 < LeerokLacerta> Hedgehog?
23:58 < hezekiah> (orgle: That's one of the sounds a llama makes.)
23:58 <@mids> LeerokLacerta: relatively large rodents with sharp erectile bristles mingled with the fur
23:59 < hezekiah> Mids got turned into a hedgehog by the entropy bug.
23:59 < hezekiah> I got turned into a llama.
23:59 <@mids> no
23:59 < LeerokLacerta> I know what it is, but why're you making hedgehog noises?
23:59 <@mids> because I reported the logging bug that didnt exist
23:59 < hezekiah> Ah.
23:59 < hezekiah> Well, you had mentioned you were going to turn into a hedgehog when refering to the previous entropy bug.
--- Day changed Wed Mar 05 2003
00:00 <@mids> that was back then
00:00 <@mids> Tue Mar  4 23:00:03 UTC 2003
00:00 <@mids> meeting NOW in here
00:00 <@mids> Welcome everybody
00:00 <@mids> this is the 32th IIP meeting
00:00  * LeerokLacerta feels welcomed.
00:00 <@mids> previous one was canceled, because nobody was there
00:00 <@mids> logs are available on http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iip/
00:01 <@mids> We got a little agenda:
00:01 <@mids> 1) Welcome
00:01 <@mids> 2) IIP 1.1.0 Release status update
00:01 <@mids> 3) Trent accesslevel for 'voice'
00:01 <@mids> 4) Question round
00:01 <@mids> if you have any questions on the current topic, please ask
00:01 <@mids> otherwise save them for the question round.
00:01 <@mids> .
00:02  * mids moves the agenda pointer to #2 "IIP 1.1.0 Release status update"
00:02 <@mids> well hezekiah, what happened? :)
00:02 < hezekiah> Oh. OK. :)
00:02 < hezekiah> Well, the first entropy bug got fixed.
00:02 < hezekiah> After much banging of heads and exchanging of emails ...
00:03 < hezekiah> ... UserX, nop, and myself managed to work out a fix for it.
00:03 < hezekiah> Now, mids is noticing a NEW problem with the entropy gathering (namely seed.rnd isn't getting saved.)
00:03 < hezekiah> Anyway, I've hunted in the code and posted my discoveries to the iip-dev mailing list.
00:04 <@mids> this thing is another release delayer
00:04 <@mids> hopefully the last one
00:04 < hezekiah> I am now waiting on UserX or nop to tell me what all this means and if I'm missing something (because I think I am. None of it makes any sense.)
00:04 < hezekiah> Hopefully. *orgle*
00:04 <@mids> .
00:04 < hezekiah> .
00:04 <@mids> Any IIP 1.1.0 specific questions?
00:05 < LeerokLacerta> No socks?
00:05 <@mids> no socks
00:05 < hezekiah> No SOCKS.
00:05 < LeerokLacerta> K.
00:05 <@mids> ok
00:05 <@mids> lets move on to #3 "Trent accesslevel for 'voice'"
00:06 <@mids> this is related with the hidden agenda point #2.9 "The #freenet-opn channel"
00:06 <@mids> the official Freenet project channel is on irc.freenode.net
00:06 <@mids> but that is not anonymous
00:06 <@mids> we have a mirror with that channel here
00:06 <@mids> in #freenet-opn
00:07 <@mids> the bot 'eyeKon' tells you everything that happens on the other side
00:07 <@mids> normally this is a one way mirror, but you can say something back with the "!say :text" command
00:07 <@mids> to use this you got to have operator or voice status
00:07 <@mids> if you want to say something, ask an operator to give you voice
00:07 <@mids> ,
00:08 < dm> How about if you are identified by Trent you get voice automatically and your name gets prefixed to your messages. If people on the other side have a problem they can send a command to the bot to "ban" a certain anonyname. In which case EyeKon on this side removes voice permanently from that name.
00:08 < LeerokLacerta> Permanently?
00:08 < LeerokLacerta> How 'bout timed ban?
00:08 <@mids> it will get pretty complicated
00:09 <@mids> they have to know how to bot works
00:09 <@mids> while it is intended more as a one-way transparant thing
00:09 -!- hezekiah is now known as nickthief88099
00:09 <@mids> I have contacted the channelowners of #freenet
00:09 <@mids> and they didnt have a problem with it
00:09 < dm> sure, until mids or someone restores it. Must make sure not to spam/bother people on the other side.
00:09 <@mids> that is why not everybody will get voice 
00:09 <@mids> it is VERY easy to create lot of accounts here
00:10 <@mids> so it will be impossible to ban them all
00:10 < dm> ok, so selective voice, through trent?
00:10 <@mids> what I DO want to do is selective voice through Trent
00:10 < jake> this sure is an interesting conversation but I need to eat buh bye
00:10 <@mids> which is agenda item #3
00:10 <@mids> bye jake, thanks for joining
00:10 <@mids> be sure to read the logfile afterwards
00:10 < jake> thank you
00:10 < jake> k
00:10 <@mids> Right now the channel access system has 3 levels:
00:11 <@mids> level 1: operator
00:11  * mids checks the site how he called it
00:12 <@mids> Level 1: Normal operator, can give him/herself ops 
00:12 <@mids> Level 2: Super operator, can add other users to the channel (with lower level)
00:12 <@mids> Level 3: Founder, most powerfull, required to drop a channel for example
00:12 <@mids> I want to add a voice level
00:12 <@mids> so people can get voice on the channel if they are on the access list
00:12 <@mids> but the problem is... what number should the voice level be?
00:12 < hezekiah> lol
00:13 < hezekiah> Tell me you didn't use magic numbers, mids.
00:13 < hezekiah> Please.
00:13 <@mids> I am thinking about changing level 1 into 10
00:13 <@mids> and 2 into 20 
00:13 <@mids> and 3 into 30
00:13 <@mids> and adding level 5 as voice
00:13 < hezekiah> Sounds good. It leaves room for further improvements.
00:13 <@mids> exactly
00:14 <@mids> note that I dont plan to make Trent a big & bloaty service
00:14 <@mids> comments? objections?
00:14 <@mids> .
00:14 < hezekiah> Umm .. so what's the problem?
00:15 <@mids> there is no problem
00:15 < dm> voice = voice on all channels?
00:15 < hezekiah> OK.
00:15 < hezekiah> It sorta looked like that. :)
00:15 <@mids> dm: no, it is channel specific
00:15 <@mids> hezekiah: I am always dramatic
00:15 < dm> ok
00:15 <@mids> dm: try this:
00:15 <@mids>  /squery trent chanlist #iip-dev
00:15 <@mids> you'll get a list of the users on the access list
00:15 <@mids> with the level 
00:15 < dm> ah, nice
00:16 <@mids> ok
00:17 <@mids> then it is now time for the last item #4: "Question Round"
00:17 < dm> is there a roadmap documented anywhere, for IIP?
00:18 <@mids> only internally I think
00:18 <@mids> I dont have it...
00:18 <@mids> hezekiah?
00:18 < hezekiah> And why does "/squery Trent :chanlist #anonymous" return a blank list.
00:18 < hezekiah> Oh.
00:18 < hezekiah> Well we have a small todo list of stuff we need to do in the development tree.
00:18 <@mids> hezekiah: too late (because nobody is on the access list for #anonymous, it is oper-less)
00:18 < hezekiah> I'm not aware of any roadmap though.
00:19 <@mids> maybe it would be good to make one
00:19 < dm> ok, you're not even thinking about decentralizing any time soon, correct?
00:19 < hezekiah> Well, that would be nop's department.
00:19 < hezekiah> (Actually, I've already asked for something like that.)
00:20 < hezekiah> (He said we were going to sit down and map out [or whatever he said] IIP 1.2 after 1.1 is released.)
00:20 < hezekiah> .
00:21 <@mids> well
00:21 < dm> 1.1 is there a changelog somewhere?
00:21 <@mids> nop is very busy
00:21 <@mids> maybe someone else should do it
00:21 <@mids> dm: yes, hang on
00:21 < hezekiah> mids: No one else has the authority to do it.
00:21 <@mids> http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/*checkout*/invisibleip/iip/CHANGELOG
00:21 < hezekiah> We are talking about setting the future course of development for IIP.
00:21 < dm> thanks, bookmarked
00:22 <@mids> hezekiah: understood
00:25  * mids just heared that they got plenty of things to do for 1.2
00:25 < hezekiah> As for nop not having time, ...
00:25 < hezekiah> We still have plenty of known coding to do on 1.2.
00:26 < hezekiah> 1.2 will not die for lack of vision. And even if we finish the stuff currently on the list, a short discussion will come up with more.
00:26 < hezekiah> Eventually nop will have time to sit down with us and describe a plan for development of 1.2.
00:26 < dm> any general notes on what 1.2 is striving for?
00:26 < hezekiah> The big one: decentralize the ircd server!
00:26 < dm> ah, ok, you don't know.
00:27 < dm> ah, that's in 1.2? sweet.
00:27 <@mids> is it already?
00:27 <@mids> omg
00:27 < hezekiah> Is the decentralization ready? No!
00:27 < dm> planned for I mean :p
00:27  * mids objects!
00:27 <@mids> when do you want to release 1.2?
00:27 <@mids> 2010?
00:27  * LeerokLacerta is an object.
00:27 < hezekiah> lol
00:28 < hezekiah> Let's just say sometime after 1.1 is released. :)
00:28 < hezekiah> Right now 1.1 is the priority.
00:28 < hezekiah> (At least that's the feeling I've gotten.)
00:28 < dm> so you is it going to be distributed ircd servers or completely decentralized?
00:28 < hezekiah> dm: I don't know the details.
00:28 < dm> ok
00:28 < hezekiah> I'm not really very good at P2P stuff. :)
00:28 < hezekiah> I just code
00:28 <@mids> let me paste an email from 2002-03-19
00:28 <@mids> From: 0x90 (0x90@invisiblenet.net)
00:28 <@mids> Date: Tue Mar 19 2002 - 00:22:26 CET
00:28 <@mids> Subject: [iip-dev] 1.1.0 almost complete
00:28 <@mids> Ok, we're nearing the completion of 1.1.0. As soon as the TODO/Fixes and cui
00:28 <@mids> for linux are complete, we should run a beta test of the network for this
00:28 <@mids> week, this is done by the developers/testers. Stay posted.
00:29 <@mids> --0x90-- 
00:29 <@mids> .
00:29 < hezekiah> Ouch.
00:29 < hezekiah> That hurt, mids. ;-)
00:29 <@mids> yes it did
00:29 < hezekiah> What date was the last release of IIP made?
00:30 <@mids> RC3 was 2002-12-04
00:30 <@mids> but ofcourse the whole 'RC' stuff was wrong
00:31 <@mids> ofcourse it is just a name
00:31 <@mids> RC2 could have been 1.1.0
00:31 <@mids> then RC3 1.1.1
00:31 <@mids> and what we will have now 1.1.2
00:32 < nop> well
00:32 < nop> in the crypto community
00:32 < nop> we should continue with RC4, 5 and 6, and see if they crack it
00:32 < nop> ;)
00:32 < nop> bad joke
00:33 < Nostradumbass> Excuse me for butting in...
00:33 < jake> butts!
00:33 < Nostradumbass> but it seems that iip developers have forgotten the prime mazimum of open source, "Release early, release often".
00:34 < LeerokLacerta> IIP is open source?
00:34 < nop> sure
00:34 < nop> right
00:34 < nop> but
00:34 < hezekiah> LeerokLacerta: yes
00:34 < LeerokLacerta> I'm dumb.
00:34 < nop> we also value security
00:34 < Nostradumbass> i haven't been around on iip too long but i can't recall ever hearing about it being /.'d
00:35 < nop> and we like to bend the rules
00:35 < nop> it's been slashdotted
00:35 < Nostradumbass> apologies
00:35 <@mids> RC2 was /.-ed
00:35 < Nostradumbass> k
00:35 <@mids> and it gave us... hezekiah !
00:35 < nop> yes
00:35 < nop> ;)
00:35 < Nostradumbass> still that's quite a while back.
00:35 < hezekiah> mids: actually no.
00:36 < hezekiah> mids: I was watching this project for more than a year before the /.ing.
00:36 < jake> um guys? about the web based IIP are there any plans for improvement? like a nicer interface?
00:36 < nop> that's a distributedcity question
00:36 < nop> they make the interface
00:36 < jake> oooo k
00:37 < nop> it was something that they did, not really direct involvement with us
00:37 <@mids> doing releases gives publication
00:37 <@mids> you can do announcements, press releases
00:37 <@mids> we have multiple places that really like to hear about updates
00:38 <@mids> it increases the interest and amount of users in the project
00:38 <@mids> and also potential contributors / developers
00:38 <@mids> IF you have some super-duper mixnet
00:38 <@mids> you do need lots of users
00:38 <@mids> because with 2 users it isnt anonymous
00:39 <@mids> there have been more stable periods in the development code
00:39 <@mids> at which point we could have made a release
00:39 <@mids> IMHO
00:39 <@mids> problem is maybe the dependencies...
00:40 <@mids> PGP signing the release, compiling for windows, etc
00:40 <@mids> anyway, I have said it before ;)
00:42 < hezekiah> Well, between my being sporadically bumped from the network, I've tried to say something that didn't get said. ;-)
00:42 < hezekiah> <hezekiah> nop: mids has raised some good points.
00:42 < hezekiah> <hezekiah> nop: After we get 1.1 out the door (which should be _really_ soon), are we going to come up with a nice coherent plan for 1.2 so that we can get it out in a reasonable amount of time?
00:42 < hezekiah> <hezekiah> I think with good planning, and goals to get certain parts done by certain times, we could still write great code, but get it done in a reasonable timeframe. :)
00:42 < hezekiah> There! :)
00:42 <@mids> thanks
00:43 < Nostradumbass> in addition to the proposed feature list, perhaps a list of prohibited features (to limit feature creep) might be a good idea.
00:43 < dm> 1.2! 1.2! 1.2! 1.2!
00:44 <@mids> good suggestion Nostradumbass 
00:44 < hezekiah> Well, I wasn't really refering to a feature list. I was refering to what we are going to code, in what order, and by what suggested time.
00:45 < hezekiah> nop? What do you think?
00:46 < nop> good idea
00:46 < nop> organization is always good
00:46 < nop> but not always perfect
00:46 < hezekiah> Perhaps after we release 1.1, all the developers could sit down and we could make up a list of stuff we plan on doing in the next 1-2 months, then a list of stuff planned for the next 5 months, then with a full list of what will make IIP 1.2 to be version 1.2. :)
00:46 < hezekiah> I know. It will be _very_ flexable.
00:47 < hezekiah> (For starters I wouldn't say feature A is one at date 1 and feature B is done at date 2. I'd say feature A is hopefully done in X weeks, and feature B is hopefully done Y weeks after feature A.)
00:47 < hezekiah> I think that something as a general guide to what we're doing is a good idea.
00:48 < hezekiah> Not a stiff-as-iron list. :)
00:48 <@mids> yeah, get it
00:48 < hezekiah> OK ...
00:48 < hezekiah> Anything to add mids?
00:49 <@mids> nope
00:49 < hezekiah> OK. ;)
00:49 < hezekiah> So for now ...
00:49 < hezekiah> I am waiting for nop or UserX to enlighten me concerning the stuff I dug up on mids' new entropy bug.
00:49 <@mids> I hope that I wont find other issues
00:49 < hezekiah> (It just doesn't seem like randomWriteSeed() is never called.)
00:49 < hezekiah> Let's hope. :)
00:50 < nop> double negative
00:50 < nop> hmm
00:50 < nop> ;)
00:50 <@mids> .
00:50 <@mids> I am done :)
00:50 < hezekiah> You're right! :)
00:50 < hezekiah> It seems like randomWriteSeed() should be called.
00:50 < hezekiah> But it doesn't look like it is.
00:51 <@mids> not in randomSlowPoolReseed?
00:52 < hezekiah> Well, lets hope we have this bug fixed by next week.
00:52 <@mids> you better do that!
00:52  * mids tries to put up an angry face
00:53 <@mids> ok, been a pleasure again. till next meeting, mailinglist, chat or otherwise!
00:53 <@mids> *boink*
00:53 < hezekiah> randomSlowPoolReseed() calls randomWriteSeed(), but (as I said in my email to iip-dev), randomSlowPoolReseed() is never called by anyone!
00:53 < hezekiah> lol
-- Log closed Wed Mar 05 23:42:43 2003