--- Log opened Tue Jun 11 22:52:16 2002
22:55 < logger> logging started
22:55 <@mids> already?
22:55 < logger> yes :)
22:55 -!- mode/#iip-dev [+v logger] by mids
23:23 < I> 23:23 @933.23
23:23 < I> heh, evil time
--- Day changed Wed Jun 12 2002
00:09 -!- mode/#iip-dev [+oo UserX nop] by mids
00:39 -!- mode/#iip-dev [+o codeshark] by nop
00:39 <@mids> hey codeshark 
00:39 <@codeshark> hey
00:41 < UnDeRToW> hi, good night everybody
00:41 <@nop> night
00:49 <+BluePaperBoy> hi
00:49 <+BluePaperBoy> did I miss the meeting yet?
00:50 <@mids> Tue Jun 11 22:50:18 UTC 2002
00:50 <@mids> almost
00:50 <+BluePaperBoy> just in time :)
00:55 <+BluePaperBoy> 4 minutes 20 seconds ;)
00:56 <@nop> ok
00:57 <+BluePaperBoy> sorry, just getting antsy :)
00:58 <@nop> hehe
00:59 <@mids> lets get started
00:59 <@mids> first of all I want to congratulate UnDeRToW, he passed his exams
01:00 <+BluePaperBoy> 0
01:00 < UnDeRToW> :)
01:00 <+BluePaperBoy> :)
01:00 <@nop> awesome
01:00 <+BluePaperBoy> it has begun :P
01:00 <@mids> all the important docs are on http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iip/
01:00 <+BluePaperBoy> err, my count down ended :P
01:00 <@mids> this is the 4th meeting
01:00 <@mids> it is public, and unmoderated as long as it isnt chaotic
01:01 <@mids> if it become moderated, message an operator or somebody with voice, the line that you want to say
01:01 <@mids> welcome :)
01:01 <@nop> welcome all
01:01 <@mids> a logfile is recorded
01:01 <@mids> and available for everybody
01:01 <@mids> including for those who are too late
01:01 <@mids> .
01:02 <@mids> got something to add nop ?
01:02 <@nop> thnx you for all coming
01:03 <@nop> and contributing to IIP as a user/tester, developer, or otherwise
01:03 <@codeshark> i'm here
01:03 <@nop> let's see what's on the agenda for today
01:03 <@mids> 1) Welcome
01:03 <@mids> 2) Network / Channel policies
01:03 <@mids> 3) Website
01:03 <@mids> 4) Documentation status
01:03 <@mids> A) Questions?
01:03 <@mids> B) Next meeting
01:03 <@mids> attition: something about iip 1.1
01:03 <@mids> (forgot to add that)
01:03 <@mids> .
01:04 <@nop> ok
01:04 <@nop> 2 network / channel policies
01:04 <@nop> mids if you would please
01:04 <@mids> sure
01:04 <@mids> we had something happening in #anonymous
01:04 <@mids> I kind of missed it
01:05 <@mids> but thanks to my big brother logging, I got to see it later
01:05 <@mids> there was a little incident that showed us the need for some policies
01:05 <@mids> since this network is going to become more serious
01:05 <@mids> with more people attending
01:05 <@nop> may I add something
01:05 <@mids> the risk of possible conflicts is always there
01:05 <@nop> ?
01:05 <@mids> sure
01:06 <@nop> The definitive goal of IIP
01:06 <@nop> is to allow freedom of speech
01:06 <@nop> and to fight censorship and oppression
01:06 <@nop> now we all share this common goal
01:06 <@nop> assuming
01:06 <@nop> so there are moderators
01:06 <@nop> for channels
01:07 <@nop> which gives us a sense of power, but really, is very minimal control, banning anonymity is not exactly easy
01:07 <@nop> but the purpose is to make sure everyone is not inhibited by their speech
01:07 <@nop> and can say what they would like to say
01:07 <@mids> as you maybe all know
01:07 <@nop> so keeping this in mind
01:08 <@nop> continue
01:08 <@mids> 'we' dont often know what is going on on the network
01:08 <@mids> exept for the public channels
01:08 <@mids> inclusing #anonymous, but also #iip and #help
01:08 <@mids> maybe I forgot more official channels, if so
01:08 <@mids> inform me
01:08 <@mids> because those channels kindof determine the public look of IIP, we need to get some rules done
01:09 <@mids> why?
01:09 <@mids> 2 reasons
01:09 <@mids> tell the users what the operators can do
01:09 <@mids> and visa versa
01:09 <@mids> normally, on IIP, every channel
01:09 <@mids> should be seen as a sovereign country
01:09 <@mids> since there is almost none network wide power
01:09 <@mids> every channel got to have its own rules
01:10 <@mids> which can differ from channel to channel
01:10 <@mids> if you have a channel names #sailing
01:10 <@mids> we cant do nothing there
01:10 <@mids> even if we hate the boat that you like to sail with :)
01:10 <@mids> anyway
01:10 <@mids> I want to propose some rules
01:11 <@mids> 3 categories
01:11 <@mids> 1) network wide
01:11 <@mids> 2) #anonymous
01:11 <@mids> 3) other official channels
01:11 <@mids> for all other channels, we have no power as IIP team
01:11 <@mids> except for the network rules
01:11 <@mids> any questions so far?
01:12 <@mids> nope?
01:12 <@mids> great
01:12 <@mids> I have thought of these 3 rules for the whole network:
01:12 < ellison> seems to me that #iip should be protected as well
01:12 <@mids> - no flooding
01:12 <@mids> - no spamming
01:13 < ellison> oh, 3)  other protected channels
01:13 <@mids> - no acts that endanger the existance of IIP
01:13 <@mids> .
01:13 <@mids> ellison: yes?
01:13 < ellison> nevermind, 'scuse me
01:13 <@mids> np
01:13 <+BluePaperBoy> acts that endanger the existance of IIP?  please clarify
01:14 <@mids> sure
01:14 <@mids> that is a pretty broad subject
01:14 <@mids> but whatever happens here.. we shouldnt risk the continuity of IIP
01:14 <@mids> some posibilities:
01:14 <@mids> ddos attacks
01:14 <@mids> child porn
01:15 <@mids> terrorist cells etc
01:15 <@mids> if we know about those things
01:15 <@mids> we have to forbid them
01:15 <@mids> because countries will attack us if we support such things
01:15 < UnDeRToW> but how we control that?
01:15 <@mids> good question
01:16 < UnDeRToW> we cant spy other users
01:16 <@mids> sure
01:16 <+BluePaperBoy> we shouldn't atleast
01:16 < ellison> ddos is a separate matter from the rest
01:16 <@mids> but if such happens, without us knowing?
01:16 <@mids> ellison: yes, correct.. ddos is more flooding
01:16 < ellison> for child porn, terrorist cells, money laundering and other statust bugaboos, we should insist on proof from the entity complaining or threatening to shut down IIP
01:18 <@mids> so if an entity comes with evidence about activity x
01:18 <@nop> evidence that they have to prove that it is the specific user
01:18 < ellison> yup
01:19 <@mids> then we can nuke his trent accounts, jupe his nick etc
01:19 < ellison> if the entity complaining has no power to harm IIP, we ignore them
01:19 <@mids> but such claims should always be verified
01:19 <+BluePaperBoy> if IIP is truly anonymous, how could that be proven and what steps could be taken to stop the person is question
01:19 <@mids> ellison: exactly
01:20 < ellison> if they can harm IIP, we insist on proof
01:20 <@mids> BluePaperBoy: we can deal with nyms, not with real persons
01:20 <+BluePaperBoy> mids: but then they can merely change their IIP identity and continue
01:20 < ellison> if they meet the proof requirements, we delete their Trent accounts as you said, and then send a report to the entity which complained
01:21 < ellison> BPB: yeah, that's the beauty of a pseudoanonymous system...
01:21 <@mids> for the sake of the common IIP wealth, such complaints should be globally announced I think
01:22 <@nop> agreed
01:22 < ellison> BPB: say some soldiers in afghanistan discovered a computer with IIP logs which proved that terrorists were using IIP to communicate ebtween their cells
01:22 <@mids> nop: what is the official email address for such things?
01:22 <+BluePaperBoy> put on the website?
01:22 < ellison> that would consistute proof, I think
01:22 <@nop> iip@invisiblenet.net
01:23 <+BluePaperBoy> ellison: be we would no not who it was or how to stop them
01:23 < ellison> we'd have their nym names
01:23 < ellison> and we could just delete their records from Trent (assuming they used Trent)
01:23 <@mids> okay, governments and other entities should email their proof of misusage (pgp signed & encrypted ofcourse) to iip@invisiblenet.net
01:23 < ellison> heh
01:24 <@nop> we still have very little power
01:24 <@nop> to stop them
01:24 <@nop> and the most we can do
01:24 <@nop> is prohibit them from using trent
01:24 <@nop> etc
01:24 <@nop> at least under that nym
01:24 <@mids> ofcourse we will do that
01:24 <@mids> whatever is in our power
01:24 < ellison> (this inability to exert controlling censorship is part of the good design of IIP, IMHO)
01:25 <@nop> it only gets better with age
01:25 <@UserX> what do we do if entities try and demand logging?
01:25 <@mids> UserX: they may join channels
01:25 < ellison> remove IIP servers from their jurisdiction
01:25 <@mids> and log all traffic
01:25 <+BluePaperBoy> so IIP'll do like most governments and "officially condemn"
01:26 <@nop> try being key operative word
01:26 <@nop> the most logging that is taking place
01:26 <@nop> is the irc clients
01:27 <@nop> but the big concern is coercing or forcing a user to log
01:27 <@mids> everybody should understand that he/she acts here as a nym
01:28 <@mids> and every relationshop between his/her real identify and the nym is a possible danger on his anon/pseudo nymity
01:29 <+BluePaperBoy> What about bad mouthing IIP and convincing people to leave/stop supporting...would that be considered "acts that endanger the existance of IIP" (just to clarify)
01:29 <@nop> no
01:29 <+BluePaperBoy> thank you
01:29 <@nop> but 
01:29 <@nop> it's not nice
01:29 <@nop> ;)
01:30 <+BluePaperBoy> I was just wondering how liberally mids' statement would be taken :)
01:30 <@mids> ok
01:30 <@mids> now we have another thing
01:30 <@mids> maybe it is channel, maybe network wide
01:30 <@mids> 'dont reveal the identify of others without permission'
01:31 <+BluePaperBoy> I don't think that should be regulated
01:31 <@nop> it's more of a request
01:31 <@nop> not a regulation
01:31 <@mids> maybe on a personal / per channel base?
01:32 <@mids> ok, got network covered... lets move to #anonymous
01:32 <@mids> what is the main purpose of this channel
01:32 <@mids> and what is its name :)
01:32 <@mids> personally I think that it is about freedom of speech
01:32 <+BluePaperBoy> bash liberals?
01:32 <@mids> & that is what IIP is about
01:33 <@mids> so, I don't think that any additional rules are needed except for the network ones
01:33 < Robert> .
01:33 <@mids> with the suggestion to move offtopic stuff to the appropriate channels
01:34 <@mids> freenet stuff may be discussed there
01:34 <@mids> but should be not taken too seriouyd
01:34 <@mids> serioud
01:34 <@mids> err
01:34 <@mids> whatever :)
01:35 <@mids> if someone is doing / saying things that you dont like
01:35 <@mids> consider using /ignore
01:35 <@mids> (see your IRC client manual for more information)
01:35 <@mids> other additions to #anonymous?
01:35 < Neo>  /ignore #anonymous works pretty good for me :)
01:36 <@mids> Neo: I think you mean /part #anonymous :)
01:36 < Neo> :)
01:36 <@mids> now the other official channels...
01:36 <@mids> which do we have?
01:36 <@mids> I think : #iip 
01:36 <@mids> #iip-dev and #help
01:37 <+BluePaperBoy> what about #freenet?
01:37 <@mids> hm, since there is no real relationship between freenet and IIP, I think that that isnt an official matter
01:38 < ellison> #terrorist-plots
01:38 < ellison> ;-)
01:38 <@mids> #freenet channel policies should be discussed with the #freenet founder and operators
01:38 <@mids> -Trent(anon.iip)- The channel #terrorist-plots is NOT registered
01:38 <@mids> ok
01:38 <@mids> #iip is the main serious IIP channel
01:38 <@mids> (imho)
01:39 <@mids> so, stuff there should be related to IIP
01:39 <@mids> and should be correct.. don't give incorrect info there
01:39 <@mids> maybe same for #help
01:39 <@mids> anyway
01:39 <@mids> I got the hint that we are getting bored
01:39 <@mids> :)
01:40 <@mids> ,
01:40 <@nop> ok
01:40 <@nop> basically
01:40 <@nop> no inhibiting people's speech
01:40 <@nop> only time to regulate
01:40 <@nop> is if others are inhibiting free speech
01:40 <@nop> aka spamming
01:40 <@nop> or flooding
01:41 <@nop> and do not abuse operator powers to inhibit speech
01:41 <@nop> got it
01:41 <@nop> good
01:41 <@nop> move on
01:41 <@mids> yup
01:41 <@mids> official thingL
01:41 <@mids> reinstate cohesion
01:41 <@nop> we will once we talk to him and review the rules
01:41 <@nop> he should be re-instated
01:41 <@mids> done
01:42 <@mids> with level 2
01:42 <@mids> over & out :)
01:42 <@mids> 3) Website
01:43 <@mids> --------
01:43 <@mids> how is the design going?
01:43 <+BluePaperBoy> ?
01:43  * mids looks at the agenda
01:43 <@mids> ellison: got something to say? :)
01:44 < ellison> ah
01:44 < ellison> working on it right now
01:44 < ellison> looks cool, trust me.
01:44 < ellison> ;-)
01:44 <+BluePaperBoy> which "sample" is his
01:44 <+BluePaperBoy> ?
01:44 < ellison> I might have something to show by the end of the meeting - if not then, later tonight
01:45 <@mids> another design (from tikk) is on http://www.nokhockey.com/scott/IIP/home2.htm
01:45 <@mids> hm, nop, can you say something about "wear IIP? 
01:47 <@nop> oh
01:48 <@nop> hold please
01:48 <@nop> on phone
01:48 <@mids> ah
01:48 <@mids> "if you cant wait till the IIP site is done and already want to show your passion with IIP : http://www.cafepress.com/invisiblenet
01:48 <@mids> nop got some nice stuff there
01:48  * mids bought some IIP tshirts :)
01:49 <@nop> all funding goes to fund the project
01:49 <@mids> but most goes to the cafepress guys :(
01:49 <@mids> I want to have a black tshirt with a white IIP logo
01:50 <@mids> if you know a way to get it... tell us :)
01:50 < ellison> i want a black t-shirt with a black logo...
01:51 <@mids> ellison: noted.. we will have them too :)
01:51 < ellison> :-)
01:51 <@mids> other comments?
01:51 <+BluePaperBoy> I want something blue :)
01:51 <@mids> BluePaperBoy: cool
01:51 <@mids> I think that the logo's that Banks made are available
01:51 <+BluePaperBoy> ...can't find anything though ;(
02:07 -!- Topic for #iip-dev: Info, agenda, log : http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iip/ | Tuesday 23:00 UTC - http://e-store.invisiblenet.net
02:07 [Users #iip-dev]
02:07 [@codeshark   ] [ ellison] [ logger] [ Robert   ] [ UserX] 
02:07 [@nop         ] [ epoch  ] [ mids  ] [ Rooster77] 
02:07 [+BluePaperBoy] [ I      ] [ Neo   ] [ UnDeRToW ] 
02:07 -!- Irssi: #iip-dev: Total of 13 nicks [2 ops, 0 halfops, 1 voices, 10 normal]
02:07 -!- Irssi: Join to #iip-dev was synced in 1 secs
02:07 < Neo> <UserX> A new protocol has now been implemented for IIP 1.1 details of it are at: http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iip/meeting4/iip11proto.txt
02:07 < Neo> <UserX> this adds error detection and fixes problems introduced by the server having a static key
02:07 < Neo> (4 the logger)
02:08 < logger> gracia
02:10 <@nop> ok
02:10 <@nop> next
02:10 < logger> 3,4]                                                                                      
02:11 -!- mode/#iip-dev [+o mids] by Trent
02:13 < UnDeRToW> ...
02:14 <@mids> hmpf
02:14 <@mids> sorry ppl
02:14 <@mids> blaim the civ :)
02:14 <@mids> did you all see the new network diagrams?
02:14 <@nop> yes
02:14 <@nop> links etc
02:15 <@mids> question:
02:15 <@mids> bigendian == network order?
02:15 <@nop> big endian == byte order
02:15 <@mids> byte order != network order?
02:16 <@nop> ok
02:16 <@nop> any questions
02:16 <@nop> before we close the meeting
02:16 < UserX> as i understand bigendian byte order is the network byte order
02:16 <@mids> thanks UserX 
02:17 -!- mode/#iip-dev [+o UserX] by mids
02:17 < UnDeRToW> can we translate the isproxy too?
02:18 <@mids> can you explain? windows, unix, docs?
02:19 < UnDeRToW> the program to join here
02:20 <@mids> how do such programs work? do they detect the language automatically?
02:20 <@nop> locale I guess
02:21 < UnDeRToW> or have different versions
02:21 < UnDeRToW> spannish, french .....
02:22 <@UserX> there are some hooks for adding translations (gettext style) to isproxy but no support for doing actual translations yet
02:22 <@mids> I think that is a good thing.. certainly not for 1.1.. but to keep in mind, maybe 1.2 ?
02:22 < UnDeRToW> great
02:23 < UnDeRToW> and also a we have to start a FAQ
02:23 <@mids> but, I think the work involved shouldnt underestimated... chinese characters sound complex to me
02:24 <@mids> UserX: any idea how the windows i18n is?
02:24 <@codeshark> you can use resource files on windows
02:24 <@nop> chinese require double byte
02:24 <@nop> unicode
02:24 <@codeshark> yes
02:24 <@UserX> mids: do you mean how hard it would be to do translation?
02:24 <@mids> Rooster77 knows something about htat
02:25 <@mids> UserX: no, more the unicode / utf8 support
02:26 < Rooster77> Rooster77 is not fluent yet, but is working on it..
02:27 <+BluePaperBoy> just give it to a chinese programmer ;)
02:27 < Rooster77> good idea...!
02:27 <@UserX> not that familar with it but as i understand you can select codepages for interpreting 8 bit characters
02:28 <@mids> okay... more questions?
02:30 < UnDeRToW> i need the new docs to update the translation
02:30 <@mids> okay, while they are still under review, you can get them from the CVS
02:30 < UnDeRToW> ok
02:30 <@mids> do you know how to use CVS?
02:30 <+BluePaperBoy> mids: are we stuck with that crappy iip logo?  What ever happend to the copyrighted casper pics?
02:30 < UnDeRToW> yes
02:30 <@mids> UnDeRToW: contrib/htmldoc/
02:31 <@nop> which logo
02:31 <@mids> UnDeRToW: thats where everything is
02:31 <+BluePaperBoy> the two trenchcoat guys then the p
02:31 < UnDeRToW> ok
02:31 <+BluePaperBoy> ...on the clothing ;)
02:31 <@mids> I like the new design
02:32 < UnDeRToW> and the FAQ
02:32 < UnDeRToW> we have to do one
02:32 <@mids> UnDeRToW: banks started some faq items in the manual too
02:32 < UnDeRToW> i see almost always the same quesitons
02:32 < UnDeRToW> ok
02:32 < UnDeRToW> i will take a look
02:33 < UnDeRToW> last thing
02:33 <@nop> k
02:33 <@nop> I think we're done
02:33 < UnDeRToW> i think
02:34 < UnDeRToW> would be usefull to being able to change your trent password
02:35 <@mids> ok
02:35 < UnDeRToW> if you want to change you pass you have to drop the nick
02:35 <@mids> would it be needed to enter it twice?
02:35 < UnDeRToW> but if you drop you loose the channels
02:35 <+BluePaperBoy> mids: that would be nice
02:36 <@mids> I'll think about it :)
02:37 <@mids> (no reason not to do it, just someone has to code it)
02:37 <@nop> should be like 5 lines of code
02:37 <@mids> well, 6
02:37 <@mids> :)
02:38 <+BluePaperBoy> so it'll be done within a year I guess :)
02:38 <@mids> very likely
02:39 <@nop> ok
02:39 <@mids> remember me everydat
02:39 <@mids> day
02:39 <@nop> one thing
02:39 <@nop> http://e-store.invisiblenet.net
02:39 <@nop> support the project
02:39 <@nop> will work on getting black on white
02:39 <@nop> ellison
02:39 <@nop> anything on website yet
02:39 < ellison> hey,
02:39 < ellison> about 1 hour away from something I'd be comfortable showing
02:40 <@nop> ok
02:40 <@nop> is it like just started
02:40 <@nop> or is it fully functional 
02:40 <@nop> the one you're showing
02:40 <@nop> ?
02:40 < ellison> this is a photoshop draft
02:40 <+BluePaperBoy> are you hardcoding or cheating?
02:40 < ellison> ?
02:41 < ellison> it's quite a few steps away from a finished site, but I can break out the HTML for templates in a day or so once the design is finalized
02:42 <@nop> ok
02:42 <@nop> kewl
02:45 <@mids> okay folks, I am going to sleep.. thanks for the patience  :)
02:46 < UnDeRToW> me too
02:46 < UnDeRToW> i have to wake up in 4 hours
02:46 < UnDeRToW> :(
02:46 < UnDeRToW> bye
02:46 <+BluePaperBoy> bye
03:08 < logger> logging ended
--- Log closed Wed Jun 12 03:08:35 2002