--- Log opened Tue Mar 25 22:07:19 2003
22:07 -!- Topic for #iip-dev: IIP Meeting - logfiles: http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iip/
22:07 [Users #iip-dev]
22:07 [@hezekiah] [ Aprogas] [ logger] [ mids] [ poX] [ UserX] 
22:07 -!- Irssi: #iip-dev: Total of 6 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 5 normal]
22:07 -!- Irssi: Join to #iip-dev was synced in 3 secs
22:07 < UserX> yes
22:07 <@hezekiah> OK. :)
22:07 < mids> log is up http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iip/meeting35/livelog.txt
22:07 < Aprogas> /exec -o tail -f http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iip/meeting35/livelog.txt
22:08 < Aprogas> loops are fun
22:08 < mids> unless anybody has any agenda;
22:08 < mids> I'd like to hear what the official proposals are for the decentralized routing protocol
22:09 < Aprogas> then at least have  1. decentral routing protocl 2. question  as agenda
22:09 < mids> 1) welcome
22:09 < mids> 2) decentralized protocol
22:09 < mids> 3) WVTTK
22:09 < mids> 4) questions
22:09 < Aprogas> thats dutch
22:10 < mids> whats the english word for it?
22:10 < Aprogas> 3) WCTTA
22:10 < Aprogas> maybe
22:10 < Aprogas> but latin would be more elite
22:10 < Aprogas> where is the director to tell me to shut up and get back to the point ?
22:10 <@hezekiah> Aprogas: be quite and get back to the point. ;-)
22:10 < mids> quod etcetera mensa venit
22:11 < Aprogas> hezekiah: thanks
22:11 < mids> -1-
22:11 < mids> Welcome everybody!
22:11 <@hezekiah> Hiya! :)
22:11 < mids> as you see, the regular meetings are earlier as the other 33 ones from now on
22:11 < mihi> hi mids
22:11 < mids> .
22:11 < mids> -2-
22:11 < Aprogas> to better fit the mainly US/EU users of IIP ?
22:12 < nop> yo
22:12 < Aprogas> hello nop
22:12 -!- mode/#iip-dev [+o nop] by Trent
22:12 <@nop> got the page
22:12 <@hezekiah> Hiya, nop! :)
22:12 < mids> Aprogas: it would fit better for UserX / nop
22:12 <@nop> is userx alive?
22:12 < Aprogas> dont forget to change your nick to noP
22:12 -!- nop is now known as noP
22:12 < mids> 2) I'd like to hear what the official proposals are for the decentralized routing protocol
22:12 <@noP> thnx aprogas
22:12 <@noP> we have no official proposal till Friday 21:00 
22:12 < UserX> noP: i'm here
22:13 <@noP> that is to be discussed
22:13 <@noP> there are semi-official proposals in www.invisiblenet.net/research
22:13 < Aprogas> can i join that discussion to give totally useless suggestions ?
22:13 <@noP> which are many different proposals
22:13 <@hezekiah> Uh, oh. Looks like I have a lot of reading to do before Friday. ;-)
22:13 <@noP> we will log it
22:13 <@noP> and you can suggest
22:13 <@noP> during iip-dev meeting
22:14 <@noP> yeah hezekiah we added more stuff ;)
22:14 -!- mids changed the topic of #iip-dev to: IIP Meeting - logfiles: http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iip/ - http://www.invisiblenet.net/research/
22:14 < mids> ok
22:14 < mids> .
22:14 < mids> quod etcetera mensa venit?
22:14 <@noP> brb
22:14 <@hezekiah> mids: What language is that?
22:15 < mids> latin
22:15 <@hezekiah> Ah.
22:15 < Aprogas> mensam sounds more correct
22:15 < mids> it should mean something like: what else comes to the table
22:15 < Aprogas> and `etcetera' isnt
22:15 < mids> et cetera
22:15 < Aprogas> but that still doesnt make sense
22:16 < mihi> quod ceterum ad mensam venit?
22:16 < Aprogas> maybe
22:16 < Aprogas> when will the IIP sourcecode be translated to latin using latin.h ?
22:16 < mihi> igpay atinlay? ;-)
22:16 < Aprogas> in other words, when will IIP development freeze to transfer those manhours to my latin.h project and complete it, only to then implement it in IIP ?
22:17 <@hezekiah> Never.
22:17 < mids> quod autem ad mensam venit
22:17 < mids> powered by http://www.latijnnederlands.nl/
22:17 < mids> .
22:17 < Aprogas> thats W Echter TTK
22:17 < mids> any IIP questions?
22:17 < mids> Aprogas: 2. verder, voorts, en dan (ter voortzetting of uitwerking v. iets voorafgaands).
22:17 < mihi> "*but* what comes to the table"?
22:17 < Aprogas> `what' does
22:18 < mids> mihi: questions, proposals, comments
22:18 < mihi> mids, you missed the ""
22:18 < Aprogas> anything that was talked about during the meeting but didnt fit in the point that was currently active
22:18 <@hezekiah> Is this item 3 on the agenda?
22:18 < Aprogas> hezekiah: i think we are at questions yet
22:18 < mids> hezekiah: yes
22:18 < Aprogas> the meeting seems chaotic and without any real content, except that the decision on the routing protocol will be made later
22:19 <@hezekiah> ... because I have no idea what "WVTTK" means and this conversation is definately obscure enough to be a possible candidate. ;-)
22:19 < mids> ok, /me formalizes
22:19 <@hezekiah> Right
22:19 < Aprogas> its probably because i am here
22:19 < mids> and because I had a lot of beer
22:19 < Aprogas> WVTTK in reality is anything that does not make sense
22:19  * mids moves on to point 4
22:20 < mids> any IIP related questions?
22:20 < Aprogas> how does the IIP team expect the userbase to grow, and when will massive PR start to stimulate more growth ?
22:20 < Aprogas> also, what kind of people does the IIP team expect to attract in the beginning, and with the PR campaign
22:21 < mids> past experience has tought that it is very easy to get on slashdot
22:21 < mids> which results in a quick increase of users
22:21 < mids> but you need Cool Features
22:21 < mids> to excuse an announcement
22:21 < Aprogas> well, most slashdot users dont stay long i think
22:21 < Aprogas> a few of them stay, but most just want to `check it out'
22:21 <@hezekiah> Right.
22:21 <@hezekiah> So once we decentralize we will have something to brag about on /.
22:22 < mids> then we can address some online magazines
22:22 < mids> like theregister
22:22 < mids> and/or wired
22:22 < Aprogas> you need cool features to excuse an announcement, and you need a cool application to keep them
22:22 <@hezekiah> Right.
22:22 < Aprogas> but slashdot is a pretty `limited' target group
22:22 < Aprogas> it only attracts a certain type of people
22:22 < mids> it is a part
22:22 < Aprogas> perhaps some more diversity would be good
22:22 < mids> you could also address some target audiences
22:22 <@hezekiah> I personally don't really care about attracting people. I just want a good program.
22:23 < mids> like writing to the dutch organisation Martijn :)
22:24 < mids> maybe some press release to AA groups, amnesty, EFF, scientology/cult critics
22:24 < mids> hezekiah: even with a good program you require a certain userbase to be able to offer decent traffic
22:25 < mids> you cant have only 2 users on your ultra-anonymous network
22:25 <@hezekiah> The way I look at it, if it's easy enough to find on freashmeat/sourceforge and it offers what people want (good anonymized chat), then people will use it.
22:26 <@hezekiah> Yes. That is a very primitive outlook on userbase growth.
22:26 < Aprogas> the average internet user does not search at sourceforge
22:26 < Aprogas> its hard to search for something if you dont know that it exists
22:26 < mids> hezekiah: freshmeat / sourceforge is only for the geeks
22:26 < mids> they think that anonymity is 'cool' 
22:26 < mids> but dont really need it that much
22:26 <@hezekiah> Or they have people they don't want to be looking over their shoulder. :)
22:26 < mids> cause they have nothing to hide :)
22:27 <@hezekiah> But their paranoia helps them set up secure nodes.
22:27 <@hezekiah> I'm not sure I would want my message traffic running through Great Aunt Edna's Windows Me machine.
22:27 < mids> what is the target audience in your oppinion?
22:27 < mids> 16-23 year old linux kiddies?
22:27 <@hezekiah> Well, I really don't care who uses it.
22:28 < mids> or joe sixpack
22:28 <@hezekiah> I would just want the people who make the nodes to make them securely.
22:28 < Aprogas> maybe some lawyers to defend us
22:28 <@hezekiah> Beyond that, I just want to make the program better by good coding.
22:28 < Aprogas> if IIP is a proper program, it would take into account that not all nodes can be secure
22:28 <@hezekiah> Nop does some userbase kind of stuff. He seems to understand it pretty well.
22:29 < mids> what do you mean?
22:29 < Aprogas> hezekiah is the true programmer, he is afraid of users
22:29 <@hezekiah> Aprogas: IIP will do its best to be idiot proof, but the security of a system always comes down to the people who run it.
22:29 <@hezekiah> Aprogas: I'm not affraid of users. I just don't really care too much _who_ they are.
22:29 < mids> http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/StrategyLetterV.html
22:30 <@hezekiah> mids: He does corporate stuff. Buisness kind of things. I still don't know how he got funding to hire Cap'n Crunch.
22:30 < mids> no comment
22:30 <@hezekiah> lol
22:33 < mids> I got nothing to say anymore
22:33 < mids> other questions?
22:33 < Aprogas> how many developers does IIP have right now, and how many hours per week do those developers spend (estimated)
22:33 <@hezekiah> Uh ..
22:34 <@hezekiah> That's a trick question actually. :)
22:34 < Aprogas> is it ?
22:34 <@hezekiah> Which _kind_ of developers are you looking for?
22:34 < Aprogas> i am not looking for developers
22:34 < Aprogas> i just want to know how the IIP development is doing
22:34 <@hezekiah> So you want to know about the developers who right isproxy?
22:35 < Aprogas> IIP is more than just isproxy i guess
22:35 <@hezekiah> Yeah.
22:35 < Aprogas> i just want to know how many people are currently spending time on IIP
22:35 <@hezekiah> That's why it's a trick question. :)
22:35 <@hezekiah> Then I have no idea! :) Not all of them are probably public!
22:35 < mids> how much time do you spend on IIP then?
22:35 < Aprogas> never mind, ill just go watch the sf's actitivity meter i guess
22:36 < Aprogas> if it has such information
22:36 <@hezekiah> I can tell you that right now (to the best of my knowledge) there are really only two people actively writting code for the isproxy source.
22:36 <@hezekiah> UserX and myself.
22:36 < mids> *nod*
22:36 < Aprogas> im not only talking about writing code
22:36 <@hezekiah> Nop is doing stuff in the background when he can that deals with neat protocols and theory.
22:36 < Aprogas> also about plannig stuff, for example that routing protocol
22:36 < Aprogas> just the project as a whole
22:36 <@hezekiah> OK ... this is an opensource project. The "developers" are anyone who pitches in an idea.
22:37 <@hezekiah> lol
22:37 < Aprogas> actually i want to know how many manhours are spent (wasted?) on IIP, so i can calculate how much money that represents
22:37 <@hezekiah> A lot trickier to answer than you thought, eh?
22:37 <@hezekiah> Well, I pretty much only know about work on isproxy.
22:37 < Aprogas> ok
22:37 <@hezekiah> That fluxuates based on how busy UserX and myself are.
22:37 <@noP> aprogas you're being nit picky
22:38 < Aprogas> its just that i want to know that if i were to donate money to this project, that i donate the right amount, not too much, not too little
22:38 <@noP> if you're not on the dev team
22:38 <@noP> then just don't waste your time
22:38 <@hezekiah> For example, right now I am very busy in real life, so I haven't been able to touch the isproxy code for over a week! (Ack!)
22:38 < Aprogas> so i want to know how much this project would `cost' in manhours
22:39 <@hezekiah> On an average week where I can write code, I might get in 4-5 hours. That's a wild stab in the dark! UserX seems to code in spurts (no offense) having periouds where he doesn't have much time and then one week where there is a flurry of commits. (He might be coding the whole time and just committing when he has completed code. I really don't know.)
22:39 <@hezekiah> Anyway, it's way to volatile for me to really get a handle on it.
22:40 < Aprogas> ok
22:41 < Aprogas> i have no more questions
22:43  * mids ends the suffering
22:43  * hezekiah hands mids the *baf*er
22:44 -!- mode/#iip-dev [+o mids] by Trent
22:44 -!- logger was kicked from #iip-dev by mids [*baf*]
--- Log closed Tue Mar 25 22:45:02 2003