forked from I2P_Developers/i2p.www
908 lines
38 KiB
Plaintext
908 lines
38 KiB
Plaintext
--> You are now talking on #iip-dev
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--- Topic for #iip-dev is IIP Meeting - logfiles:
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http://wiki.invisiblenet.net/?Meetings - http://www.invisiblenet.net/research/
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<al-jebr> it's 21:13
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<-- wilde has quit (Ping timeout)
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--- Trent@anon.iip gives channel operator status to UserX
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<nop> ok
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<qriff> !time
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<Ambience> al-jebr: 00:21 here
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<nop> I believe everyone has settled
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<hezekiah> Let's go. :)
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<jrand0m> 11:06 here
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<nop> let's start
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<nop> anyone get my agenda
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<nop> so they can play it back
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<nop> I forgot the order
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<-- leenookx has quit (Ping timeout)
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<Ambience> my clock is 15 minutes ahead :)
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--> hifi (~MetroPipe@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev
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<hezekiah> <nop> on the agenda
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<hezekiah> <nop> 1) Welcome
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<hezekiah> <nop> 2)Our Goodbyes
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<hezekiah> <nop> 3)IIP development now
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<hezekiah> <nop> 4) IIP development restructuring proposal
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<qriff> actually its xx:13 everywhere...
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<hezekiah> <nop> 5) Recruiting for services to aid with IIP
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<hezekiah> <-- Delly has quit (Ping timeout)
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<hezekiah> <nop> 6) comments suggestions and people who want to help
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<mids> 23:05:28 <@nop> 1) Welcome
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<mids> 23:05:38 <@nop> 2)Our Goodbyes
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<mids> 23:05:43 <@nop> 3)IIP development now
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<mids> 23:05:56 <@nop> 4) IIP development restructuring proposal
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<mids> 23:06:16 <@nop> 5) Recruiting for services to aid with IIP
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<mids> 23:06:53 <@nop> 6) comments suggestions and people who want to help
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<nop> wow, flood in here ;)
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<nop> pl
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<LeerokLacerta> Out goodbyes?
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<hezekiah> lol
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<hifi> TROLLS !!!
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<nop> Ok, welcome all
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<nop> let's settle down now :)
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<hifi> .
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<Ambience> settled
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--> wilde (~anon@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev
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<hifi> settled
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<al-jebr> anyone logging?
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--> thecrypto (~thecrypto@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev
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<hezekiah> I am (sort of).
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<luckypunk> mids should be.
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* jrand0m logs at all times
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<al-jebr> let's go!
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<nop> ok
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<hezekiah> nop: Agenda item number 2?
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<nop> Our goodbyes
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<LeerokLacerta> Bye!
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<thecrypto> where is the livelog?
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<nop> Ok, mids has come to a point where he is moving to other projects
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--> Phiberoptika (~none@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev
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<mids> After having worked for IIP for more than I year now, I have decided to
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resign as IIP developer.
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<LeerokLacerta> Awww.
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<mids> It has been fun and an educative experience
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<mids> but it is time to move on, refresh the spirit and shuffle the cards.
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<Rain> Will you still be online/around?
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<mids> I'll keep running Trent as long as needed and possible.
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<mids> Yes, I do plan to stay around as user
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--> ntk (~blob@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev
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* nop is in the corner sobbing
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<nop> oh, ah hem
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<jrand0m> many thanks mids, iip w/out trent would be a pita
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<LeerokLacerta> It's so sad.
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<nop> yes
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<nop> thank you mids for all your workup
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<nop> work
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<mids> Although I'll be off on vacation soon :)
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<mids> .
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--- mids removes channel operator status from mids
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<luckypunk> :D
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<luckypunk> Seem's like you've done a great job. :)
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<Rain> ..how symbolic..
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<nop> we love you mids!!!
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<nop> you hear that
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<nop> that was my window opening
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<thecrypto> we all do!
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<nop> fan base out there
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--> w (~w@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev
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--- nop is now known as we
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<luckypunk> lol, yep.
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<luckypunk> :D
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* we love you mids
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<Rain> Go mids go!
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<jrand0m> rofl
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--> leenookx (~leenookx@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev
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--- LeerokLacerta has changed the topic to: IIP Meeting - logfiles:
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http://wiki.invisiblenet.net/?Meetings - http://www.invisiblenet.net/research/
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| We love you mids!
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<Rain> weeeeee are the chaaaampins, my frieeeennnndd...
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<Neo> yes mids, thanks for all your input, collaboration and hard work in code
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and doing general developer things for IIP.
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--- we is now known as nop
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* mids bows
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* Ehud stands up and gives a standing ovation to the commitment, perseverence,
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effort, and good hard code that mids has given the project.
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<hifi> yeah mids take your toys and go to tigertown lol
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<nop> and don't forget the PR and web management
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<nop> he's been a vital aspect to IIP
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<nop> getting it this far would have been hard without his work
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--> ChZEROHag (hag@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev
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<hifi> hifi bitches with mids over trolling issue
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<-- hezekiah has quit (Ping timeout)
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<mids> heh hifi
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--> hezekiah (~hezekiah@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev
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--- Trent@anon.iip gives channel operator status to hezekiah
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<hezekiah> Back. :)
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<luckypunk> Yay.
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<hezekiah> (And in case anyone doubted, Hezekiah == Ehud.)
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<hifi> i never used frucking trent and don't know what mids did . i only troll .
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<nop> obviously your hezekiah@anon.iip gave it away
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<-- Ehud has quit (Ping timeout)
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<hezekiah> Ugh
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<hezekiah> Item number 3?
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<hezekiah> (If we're all done sobbing yet ...)
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<hifi> and i never was pingouted in my life . I am the most disciplined user of
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IIP .
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<mids> 3)IIP development now
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<luckypunk> heh
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<luckypunk> Ok everyone! Shhh. Back on track!
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<hifi> BUT I CRY that MIDS GO !!!
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<hifi> ok
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<hifi> .
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<luckypunk> IIP development. Whats the current status of that code snapshot
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release?
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<luckypunk> That was supposed to happen today?
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<hezekiah> Well, unless UserX has an objection to the tarball I made,
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it's done.
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<luckypunk> Ok. Post it on the wiki?
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<hezekiah> UserX? Were there any problems with the tarball?
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<UserX> no problems with the tarball
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<luckypunk> Yes, but are there any windows compilations?
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<hezekiah> OK1
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<hezekiah> http://invisiblenet.net/hezekiah
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<hezekiah> Get your tarballs there!
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<UserX> there hasn't been a windows compilation on the windows version yet
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<luckypunk> hm
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<LeerokLacerta> "tarballs" sound like some sort of food...
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* luckypunk will try and make one.
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--- hezekiah has changed the topic to: IIP Meeting - logfiles:
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http://wiki.invisiblenet.net/?Meetings - http://www.invisiblenet.net/research/
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- tarballs of the 'unstable' development release are at
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http://invisiblenet.net/hezekiah | We love you mids!
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<luckypunk> They are. For GCC.
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<luckypunk> lol
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<Rain> Sticky food.
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<hezekiah> There is one 'documented bug'.
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<nop> I can compile a win32 version if you'd like
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<Rain> So, could you give a quick describtion of what is new in this release?
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<hezekiah> If you run isproxy, and it fails to bind the port, then it will
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/not/ abort. It will just sit there wasting memory.
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<hezekiah> Rain: That's too much for me to handle (not to mention I don't
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even _know_ all the differences).
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<Ambience> this one I assume: iip-1.2-dev1.tar.bz2 01-Jul-2003 01:45
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292k tar archive ?
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<hezekiah> UserX could give a much better description
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<hezekiah> UserX?
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<nop> hezekiah/UserX can we get a changelog of the differences by chance
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<nop> that may be a day before that gets done
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<hezekiah> Ambience: Yup! Or the Gziped one. There the same tarball.
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<nop> because there are a log of changes
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<Rain> Oh, and has the expired IIP signing-key been replaced?
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<Ambience> hezekiah: ok
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<hezekiah> nop: I joined IIP after the development branch was already in
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progress.
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--> Ehud (~hezekiah@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev
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<hezekiah> Rain: No. I had to use my GPG key.
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<nop> no one has tested the compile of this dev branch in win32 have they?
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<luckypunk> Hey, is this src is CVS?
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<hezekiah> Rain: I couldn't contact anyone who had the IIP release key.
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<hezekiah> luckypunk: Yes.
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* luckypunk has, but his system didn't work for it.
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<Rain> hezekiah: Ok, roger.
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<UserX> changes: multi-threading, bignum support via openSSL or GMP, numerous
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inmprovements to the memory management system
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<hezekiah> luckypunk: Right now that tarball is a copy of what you get when
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you check out the hezekiah-dev branch from CVS and run 'make dist-bzip2'.
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<luckypunk> Gah! I hate windows.
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<Rain> UserX: niceties ;)
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<hezekiah> And of course there are other internal changes that only the
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developers see. :)
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<qriff> just as a question for the qurious... what defines the holder for "Trent"...
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<hezekiah> One simple thing is that now that BigNum is implemented using
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either GMP or SSL, login is a LOT faster.
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<Rain> May i mention a IIP quirk i noticed earlier today?
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* luckypunk guesses its a yes.
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<hifi> at wiki search button is absent . only window to type in but nowhere to
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click lol .
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<luckypunk> hit enter.
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<qriff> and what about channel/nick expiration...
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--- Ehud is now known as logger
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<qriff> registration that is...
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<Rain> Ok, it seems to me like you cannot start isproxy from a /path/to/isproxy
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command, but intead have to do a cd /path/to and then do a ./isproxy
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<hezekiah> Rain: Let me guess ... you get a configuration screen or a request
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for entropy, right?
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* jrand0m has a feeling this will be a very.long.meeting
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<Rain> Is that intentional, or just some quirk of my local system?
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<Rain> hezekiah: yes.
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<hezekiah> Rain: You need to make a .iip subdirectory in your home directory.
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<Rain> It claims that the conf-file is not found.
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<Rain> with my .conf file?
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<hezekiah> Rain: If no such directory exists, isproxy will always look for
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the config files in the current directory
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--> AmishOne (amishone@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev
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<Rain> Ahh. Of course.
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<hezekiah> OK ...
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<hezekiah> nop? Was there anything else for item 3?
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<nop> have we tested it for win32
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<nop> compile wise
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<hezekiah> I haven't.
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<nop> UserX: ?
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<UserX> no
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<nop> I will test it this week then
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<hezekiah> luckypunk, tried doing hezekiah-dev recently and complained for
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compile errors.
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<nop> that's key to maintain portability
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<hezekiah> I suspect there might be problems.
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* luckypunk tried, it balked.
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<hezekiah> Yup. There are problems.
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<Ambience> I'll have to leave for the more dominant one is ordering me to
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and I have no choice here. So I'll be off to bed, but will be logging #iip-dev
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for future reference.
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<Ambience> see ya guys!
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<lonelynerd> later
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<qriff> bye
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<hezekiah> Bye, Ambience. :)
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<luckypunk> i'll be back.
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<Ambience> <--gone (log on)
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<nop> ok
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<nop> this topic is done
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<nop> next on agenda
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<nop> what's 4?
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<hezekiah> 4) IIP development restructuring proposal
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<nop> ok
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<nop> we had a meeting about a discussion and proposal brought to us by jrand0m
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for the future development
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<nop> and as well
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<nop> I have had a lot of privmessages directed at me
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<nop> for requests to focus on an arbitrary framework, instead of IRC specific
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<nop> aka a framework that supports IRC + a whole lot more
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<nop> so the want is obviously there
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<nop> and the developers definitely want to go there as well
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<hezekiah> Amen!
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<nop> the question of how to go about doing it
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<nop> and how to make the most productive use of our developers
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<nop> is up in the air
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<ChZEROHag> XML
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<mids> is his framework site available to everybody?
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<nop> this isn't specifically about language
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<ChZEROHag> create a communications protocol
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<nop> ok, please let me finish
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<ChZEROHag> I've started on that somewhere...
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<nop> then we can comment
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<ChZEROHag> My apologies
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<ChZEROHag> I'm a bit in and out at the moment
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<nop> ok,
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<nop> no prob
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<nop> We are at a stage where there is discussion of an arbitrary communications
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protocol
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<nop> specifically for anonymous and secure communication
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<nop> at this point jrand0m, any chance we can post the logs of #iip-future
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meeting
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<jrand0m> sure
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<jrand0m> perhaps those zips I sent you so people don't have to struggle
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through freenet for the other pages too
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<nop> ok
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<nop> hold
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<nop> please
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<jrand0m> (btw, the logs were unedited, so expect the usual occational banter)
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<hezekiah> lol. Yup! You'll get to see exactly how much I DON'T know about
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p2p networks! lol
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<jrand0m> heh
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<hezekiah> (And they'll probably have my conspiracy theories about nop
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too! So be sure to read the logs! ;-) )
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<-- logger has quit (Ping timeout)
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<hezekiah> Ugh
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<nop> ok
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<Neo> the logs will be a lot to read. can someone summarizze for the meeting
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what was covered and some key points of all this?
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<nop> http://office.invisiblenet.net/iip_future.zip
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<nop> and
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<hezekiah> At this point, the 'stable' release is being more unstable than
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the 'unstable' one!! Urg.
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<nop> http://office.invisiblenet.net/meetingPrepnotes.zip
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<nop> http://office.invisiblenet.net/jrand0mnetwork_protocol.txt
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<jrand0m> meetingPrepnotes.zip is a small doc that summarizes the meeting,
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and the meeting was basically "ok, any thoughts?".
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<-- Delly has quit (EOF From client)
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<jrand0m> essentially, the proposal is to get going on a generic secure
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anonymous message based system, and run iip on top of that
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<mids> is there a zip with anonCommFramework too?
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<nop> I didn't see that
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<nop> jrand0m can you zip and send I'll post to site
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<jrand0m> sure, h/o
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<-- Phiberoptika has quit (* ciaito mua mua *)
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<Neo> what is anonCommFramework?
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<jrand0m> uber-quick summary of the meeting in iip_future.zip is "ok,
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here's the proposal, any comments?" and comments were basically "ok, can IIP work
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as planned on this?
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<jrand0m> if you're on freenet, anonCommFramework is at
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SSK@MQNd5lT-X5wHA4vONvtVadi6q1IPAgM/anonCommFramework/2//
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* jrand0m is sending nop a zip of that momentarily
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<Rain> Did you discuss support for PGP-based nyms?
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<nop> ah hem, this is early discussions
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<-- ChZEROHag has quit (Ping timeout)
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<jrand0m> no, endpoints in the framework are not nym based, they're idents
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<Rain> Right. So nyms an higher level.
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<Rain> are
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<jrand0m> (and for lots of reasons, they shouldn't be long term idents
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like nyms)
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<jrand0m> yes
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<Rain> I was just thinking of something like trent with PGP signarute auth.
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<mids> trent is central
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<mids> central=bad
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--> logger (~hezekiah@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev
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<jrand0m> briefly, anonCommFramework is a meta-network. a generic set
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of protocols & structures that an anonymous communication network could use to
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interoperate to provide militant grade anonymity
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<wilde> what's the one sentence explanation of your ideas on network topology?
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--> ChZEROHag (~hag@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev
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<ChZEROHag> that was fun
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--> Delly (dedede@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev
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<Rain> mids: Yea. I meant similar services.
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<lonelynerd> what about having to pay with hashcash to send data? couldn't
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that help against flooding?
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<jrand0m> wilde> heterogeneous. no one answer solves all problems.
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interoperate, balancing latency, bandwidth, anonymity, and reliability to provide
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the user's needs
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<Delly> still in 4) ?
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<hezekiah> Delly: Yup
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<Delly> thx
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<ChZEROHag> I think when the ircd is removed from the equation, we'll have
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far better options than (hash|think|real)cash
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<nop> jrand0m: any luck sending
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<nop> ;)
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<jrand0m> uploading to hush now.
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<jrand0m> ChZEROHag> anonCommFramework has built in support for providing
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network use authorization credentials
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<Rain> There has been a lot of talk of IIP-Freenet interoparability. Will that
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fit into the framework, or are we talking application-level again?
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<ChZEROHag> come again?
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<jrand0m> app level
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<jrand0m> what we're discussing is splitting iip into two parts - the irc
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part, and the message based secure anonymous network
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<wilde> one solution could be:
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<Rain> jrand0m: k.
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<wilde> Application <-> SOCKS5 Proxy Interface <-> Onion Wrapper <-> Onion Router
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1 <-> ... <-> Onion Router N <-> Exit Relay <-> Public Server
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<jrand0m> building a DHT on top of the message layer should be fairly easy
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<hezekiah> DHT?
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<jrand0m> distributed hash table
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<jrand0m> (ala freenet)
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<nop> ok, jrand0m let me clarify
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<ChZEROHag> wilde: I think the plan is to design it such that the 'public
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server' could be removed from the equation at some point
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<nop> are we talking about splitting irc, or merging to focus on anonymity
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framework
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<jrand0m> well, given unlimited # of developers, splitting and doing both
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(well, 3 things ;) in parallel.
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<nop> what I mean is that the irc part is application layer
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<jrand0m> given reality, there's prolly only enough dev time to get the
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comm system running first, then iip on top
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<jrand0m> right exactly
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<nop> and since we have a somewhat viable network working with IIP
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<jrand0m> irc is just another app running on it
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<nop> then the idea should be
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<nop> is to have developers start focusing on framework aspects
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<wilde> ChZEROHag: ok, what I suggested is an anonymizing layer for regular
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internet traffic, not a seperate network
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<hezekiah> (This could get fun.)
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<nop> wilde there are weaknesses to that
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<nop> just to let you know
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<nop> aka the clear text on the outer ends
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<-- AmishOne has quit (EOF From client)
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<wilde> nop: yes, so all connections should be encrypted to the ends
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<nop> we have an effort as well to have anonymous web browsing possible with
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this network
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<jrand0m> yes. it must be able to operate without ever leaving the mixnet
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<nop> but it is not as real time direct as your proposal wilde
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<nop> it uses some time delay tactics
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<nop> with caching etc
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<nop> timing attacks are a serious threat to anonymity
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<hifi> I WANT ANONYMISER BASED on IIP !! I DON"t TRUST OTHER ANONYSERS THEY ARE
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FBI TRAPs !!
|
|
<mids> http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/anonCommFramework/
|
|
<nop> hifi, this isn't changing IIP, this is moving us forward
|
|
<nop> thanks mids
|
|
<jrand0m> heh word mids, my moz is hanging
|
|
<nop> ok
|
|
<wilde> although independant mixnets are cool, the real killer apps will probably
|
|
be general ip traffic anonymizers
|
|
<nop> wilde, they are myths
|
|
<wilde> killer apps?
|
|
<nop> no
|
|
<-- thetower has quit (EOF From client)
|
|
<jrand0m> wilde> that could be a service built on top of the comm layer
|
|
<nop> general ip traffic anonymizers
|
|
<wilde> or ip traffic anonymizers?
|
|
<nop> so far they don't exist
|
|
<nop> they exist in papers only
|
|
--> thetower (none@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev
|
|
<jrand0m> if you build an anonymizing service on top of the comm layer,
|
|
however, your outbound routers will get shut down quickly
|
|
<thetower> Haha, I just noticed I wasn't port forwarding.
|
|
<thetower> Oop, sorry, wrong chan
|
|
<wilde> nop: what about the ZKS system?
|
|
<nop> is it still around?
|
|
<nop> and working
|
|
<wilde> nope, bad business
|
|
<wilde> few people paid
|
|
<wilde> but the framework seemed to work, but all nodes were ZKS:s paid relays
|
|
<nop> wilde but they were internal and it wasn't complete
|
|
<nop> it still had certain vulnerabilities
|
|
<nop> it was a start
|
|
<nop> I met Ian Goldberg at CodeCon 2k2, and he himself admitted it was incomplete
|
|
to what he desired
|
|
<wilde> yes, everything has vulnerabilities, we just raise the cost of tracing
|
|
dramatically
|
|
<jrand0m> right, after the mixnet is up and running, i'd like to see wilde
|
|
offer generic outbound proxy services. that'd be cool
|
|
<jrand0m> (sincerely)
|
|
<nop> jrand0m: but again the ultimate would be using that magic mirror concept
|
|
for optimum protection
|
|
<ChZEROHag> Probably the hardest option, but wouldn't freenet be a good
|
|
framework to build from?
|
|
<nop> wilde, maybe you and I can discuss this in another forum at some point
|
|
<jrand0m> but in any case, the network must be built first
|
|
<ChZEROHag> Or is that not what we're discussing?
|
|
<jrand0m> ChZEROHag> no.
|
|
<jrand0m> freenet doesn't provide hard anonymity
|
|
<ChZEROHag> aah
|
|
<ChZEROHag> I should try paying attention
|
|
<nop> ok, moving forward
|
|
<nop> UserX you still here
|
|
<wilde> nop: yes, if you have decided on topology there is no need to discuss
|
|
this in public
|
|
<UserX> I'm still here
|
|
<nop> well it's application layer, so that comes after net design etc
|
|
<nop> ok
|
|
<nop> where did we leave off at #iip-future meeting
|
|
<-- hezekiah has quit (Ping timeout)
|
|
<nop> let's start there
|
|
--- logger is now known as Ehud
|
|
* nop is catching up on the meeting logs
|
|
<jrand0m> [04:31] <jrand0m> I think we're back to your question. can /
|
|
should the irc functionality move forward as its going or move towards this mixnet.
|
|
there are significant benefits to move towards the mixnet, but some aspects of
|
|
the irc side seem to require some redesign to operate on it.
|
|
<jrand0m> [04:31] <jrand0m> the right way for the irc development to go is
|
|
not for me to say
|
|
<Ehud> Basically, UserX had some thinking to do about wether IIP could run
|
|
satisfactorily on the mixnet.
|
|
<mids> nite all
|
|
<-- mids (mids@anon.iip) has left #iip-dev (mids)
|
|
<ChZEROHag> Would it not be an idea to create a replacement irc in parallel
|
|
with a mixnet?
|
|
<ChZEROHag> After all it's going to be damn hard to use a normal ircd
|
|
<jrand0m> ChZEROHag> given infinite # devs, yes
|
|
<nop> ok ChZEROHag silence please :)
|
|
<ChZEROHag> Assume infinite devs
|
|
<ChZEROHag> Oh is this not a question bit?
|
|
--> hezekiah (hezekiah@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev
|
|
<nop> not yet
|
|
<UserX> Unfortuantlely I haven't had time to seriously sit down and think about
|
|
how your proposal would fit in with IIP
|
|
<ChZEROHag> oh
|
|
<ChZEROHag> oops
|
|
<nop> just want to get into the discussion
|
|
<nop> well
|
|
<jrand0m> UserX> think of the mixnet as a socket
|
|
<nop> let me suggest something
|
|
<nop> do we agree that our goal is not just IRC ?
|
|
<lonelynerd> well
|
|
<Delly> it's a great idea sure
|
|
<hezekiah> nop: Beyond all doubts, I agree that the goal is an anonymous
|
|
network.
|
|
<lonelynerd> doing something traffic-intensive would have the potential to
|
|
ruin the whole project
|
|
<hezekiah> nop: IRC is just a starting point.
|
|
<nop> ok, well what we should look at is this
|
|
<jrand0m> NOT doing something traffic intensive has the potential to get
|
|
us to overlook problems :)
|
|
<nop> instead of saying IIP doesn't fit
|
|
<nop> or it does fit
|
|
<nop> let's look at what modifications need to be made for irc to fit with this
|
|
mixnet, whether it's a mod to the mixnet itself
|
|
<lonelynerd> jrand0m: hmm
|
|
<nop> for instance
|
|
<nop> UserX has a vision of using channels as endpoints
|
|
<nop> Jrand0m calls them idents
|
|
<nop> are they having subtle differences
|
|
<nop> or are they largely different
|
|
<jrand0m> there's substance to those differences.
|
|
<nop> can we review that
|
|
<nop> on both sides
|
|
<nop> from jrand0m and UserX
|
|
<-- hezekiah has quit (EOF From client)
|
|
<nop> actually
|
|
<nop> read the log
|
|
<nop> nevermind
|
|
<jrand0m> ;)
|
|
--> hezekiah (hezekiah@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev
|
|
<jrand0m> the hesitancy I have w/ sending messages to a channel ident and
|
|
having that channel redistribute it to members is that the channel gets plaintext
|
|
<nop> how does it get plaintext?
|
|
<jrand0m> instead, I'd suggest having a channel contain just the channel info
|
|
(modes, users, topic, etc)
|
|
<jrand0m> the channel is just an application running on one (well, 3+)
|
|
routers listening to one (well, 3+) identities. when you /msg a channel, you
|
|
send a message to that identity (application). it then resends it out to the N
|
|
users in the channel, encrypted to each
|
|
<nop> well
|
|
<nop> I had a proposal for that
|
|
<nop> that would have the channel not contain plaintext
|
|
<nop> directly
|
|
<jrand0m> at least, without adding a channel key (which would be managed
|
|
by the channel application itself, which defeats the point)
|
|
<nop> well
|
|
<nop> we were having channel keys
|
|
<nop> for private channels
|
|
<nop> and pub channels are public anyway
|
|
<jrand0m> right. there may be ways around it. y'all know more about irc
|
|
than I do. there are other ways that don't require going this route though
|
|
<nop> see the neat thing with message channels is this
|
|
<nop> you scale slightly better than trying to find all idents to send to directly
|
|
<-- luckypunk has quit (Ping timeout)
|
|
--> dd0c (dd0c@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev
|
|
<jrand0m> I'm not sure you scale better, but you do redistribute the load
|
|
<jrand0m> (we can find idents via O(log(n)))
|
|
--> sahara (~sahara@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev
|
|
<jrand0m> but thats neither here nor there, this is application layer
|
|
design ;)
|
|
<nop> right
|
|
<jrand0m> all we need to do, imho, is find some workable ways that *could*
|
|
operate on the comm layer and then leave it to the wayside until we get there
|
|
<UserX> jrand0m: messages sent to channels are encrypted with a channel key that
|
|
is different to the channel's identity. a channel server can't decrypt a message
|
|
unless it has come across the key by othermeans
|
|
<sahara> did I miss the meeting?
|
|
<jrand0m> you've got some ways that could work, it sounds like, right?
|
|
<jrand0m> UserX> how does a user joining a channel get the key?
|
|
<hezekiah> sahara: Nope. You're right in the middle of it! :)
|
|
<nop> it's a key exchange
|
|
<jrand0m> with whom nop?
|
|
<jrand0m> brand new user joining #anonymous, and the app containing the
|
|
list of users on #anonymous doesn't have the key (As userx said)
|
|
<jrand0m> (all I'm saying is there's a way to get all the functionality
|
|
and still avoid having a channel key)
|
|
<UserX> jrand0m: with public channels it is derived from the channel name. with
|
|
private channels the user either creates one or a someone gives them the keys to
|
|
the channel
|
|
<jrand0m> 'k, cool
|
|
<jrand0m> so apps managing public channels can read the plaintext (by
|
|
deriving from the channel name)
|
|
<jrand0m> (which is prolly fine)
|
|
<nop> right
|
|
<wilde> jrand0m: if the apps encrypt the plaintext to each recepient, will it
|
|
scale well?
|
|
<jrand0m> yes wilde, perhaps better (depending on the algorithm used to
|
|
nominate channel managers)
|
|
<jrand0m> (though it will potentially have a nonserialized delivery)
|
|
<jrand0m> ((though i think thats the case with normal irc anyway))
|
|
<-- thecrypto has quit (Ping timeout)
|
|
<jrand0m> but, getting back on to the question -
|
|
<jrand0m> nop, what do we hope to have decided by the end of the discussion
|
|
of #4?
|
|
<-- Neo has quit (Ping timeout)
|
|
--> d (~sahara@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev
|
|
<nop> well
|
|
<-- sahara has quit (EOF From client)
|
|
<hifi> simple site , problem is i am tech blond but want good things lol
|
|
<nop> I was hoping that we could re-organize, but this is gonna be a discussion
|
|
for later
|
|
<hifi> sorry OOPS
|
|
<nop> UserX
|
|
<-- d has quit (Client exiting)
|
|
<nop> how long will you need to think about certain aspects, and maybe doc them
|
|
up as a concern list
|
|
<UserX> hard to say. maybe a week
|
|
<nop> what I'm thinking jrand0m is that a lot of this needs sorting out, rather
|
|
than just plowing into it, or we'll end up at the beginning with nothing to show
|
|
<nop> so let's push a week into this
|
|
<nop> and see what concerns are coming into play
|
|
<nop> because again
|
|
<nop> we want an adaptable mixnet
|
|
<nop> any application should be able to survive
|
|
<jrand0m> absolutely
|
|
<jrand0m> thats the point of the anon comm framework
|
|
<-- wilde has quit ()
|
|
<nop> ok, so let's put this off a week, and focus on some realistic proposals
|
|
that can fit all of our needs
|
|
<jrand0m> you say "send message M to location L" and it magically, securely,
|
|
anonymously gets delivered
|
|
<nop> but magic is one thing
|
|
<nop> science is another
|
|
<nop> of course you know that :)
|
|
<jrand0m> the magic is from the app level's perspective ;)
|
|
<nop> yes
|
|
<nop> understood
|
|
<jrand0m> the science is in that 15 page anonCommFramework/2// ;)
|
|
<nop> ok
|
|
<hezekiah> lol
|
|
<nop> UserX, if you can get that in a week that would be helpful
|
|
<nop> ?
|
|
<jrand0m> I'll aim at revamping the docs & getting comm layer network design
|
|
ready for then so we can hit the ground running
|
|
<nop> well
|
|
<nop> we haven't agreed on certain aspects
|
|
<nop> I think that still should be hashed out
|
|
<jrand0m> what, in the network layer, haven't we agreed on?
|
|
<nop> personally I agree that maybe you post your anonCommFramework on iip-dev
|
|
<nop> and have it reviewed and commented
|
|
* jrand0m isn't on iip-dev
|
|
<Rain> So, meeting again next tuesday, same bat-time, same bat-channel?
|
|
<nop> what haven't we agreed on is whether it can support all applications
|
|
<hezekiah> jrand0m: Just post to iip-dev@invisiblenet.net .
|
|
<hezekiah> Rain: We are on item #4. There are still other items to go. :)
|
|
<jrand0m> its ~800k. if someone could post the URL to mids' mirror that'd
|
|
be cool
|
|
<Delly> argh
|
|
<Delly> re
|
|
<Delly> about services, i think if IIP become more easier and friendly, we will see
|
|
more users and more nodes. it's why i'm making script for mIRC user, one is a Trent
|
|
script, allowing to use Trent and Anonymail with the mouse, the other is a script
|
|
allowing to transfer file over iip, staying anonymous (using uuencoding). The
|
|
"protocol" used is easy and could be done for lot's irc clients with scripting
|
|
support. And so everybody could transfer little files, even between di
|
|
<jrand0m> nop> I'm 100% certain it can support all applications.
|
|
<Rain> hezekiah: Right. My missunderstanding.
|
|
<jrand0m> this layer has been used for over a decade in hundreds of industries
|
|
<Delly> was my thought of the day
|
|
<nop> well then where do we not agree
|
|
<nop> if Irc is an issue, then how is it adaptable?
|
|
<jrand0m> it isn't an issue
|
|
<jrand0m> y'all just don't understand the layer's abstraction ;)
|
|
<lonelynerd> Delly: i have a perl script that allows one to use ssh/telnet/etc
|
|
over irc
|
|
<jrand0m> (really, think of it as a socket)
|
|
<Delly> lonelynerd, the goal was just to enhance mirc
|
|
<Delly> for iip network
|
|
<lonelynerd> Delly: yeah, but if you use base64, i think it's compatible with
|
|
this one
|
|
<Delly> could be possible tu use it
|
|
<jrand0m> ok, we ready for #5 yet?
|
|
<hezekiah> nop?
|
|
<-- hezekiah has quit (Client exiting)
|
|
<Delly> oups i thought it was 5) !
|
|
<ChZEROHag> There's a 5?
|
|
--> hezekiah (hezekiah@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev
|
|
<-- hezekiah has quit (Client exiting)
|
|
--> hezekiah (hezekiah@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev
|
|
<nop> sorry
|
|
<nop> delly
|
|
<nop> you guys
|
|
<nop> this is off topic
|
|
<nop> please reserve your conversation outside this channel
|
|
--> hezekiah_ (~hezekiah@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev
|
|
<-- hezekiah has quit (EOF From client)
|
|
<nop> well
|
|
<nop> jrand0m
|
|
--- hezekiah_ is now known as hezekiah
|
|
<nop> before I agree to go to 5
|
|
<nop> the problem I'm seeing is
|
|
<nop> UserX has a voice
|
|
<nop> as well
|
|
--- Trent@anon.iip gives channel operator status to hezekiah
|
|
<jrand0m> of course
|
|
<nop> and if he sees logistical problems
|
|
<nop> I believe they should be heard
|
|
<nop> so you can't just say, hey it's gonna work
|
|
<nop> it has to be "solidly" agreed on both ends
|
|
<nop> aka he needs convincing
|
|
<jrand0m> right, but I'm not going to sit on my thumbs waiting for him
|
|
to doc them up. if he does come up with some problems in a week, fantastic,
|
|
and we'll revise accordingly
|
|
<nop> or he needs to convine you
|
|
<nop> but the idea is this
|
|
<nop> what I'm trying to propose with this
|
|
<nop> is to reorganize our dev team to get on your bandwagon
|
|
<nop> with that
|
|
<nop> it would put our energy in working on the network design
|
|
<nop> that's the idea
|
|
<nop> thus helping all of us get somewhere specific
|
|
<nop> I'm not trying to slow down
|
|
<jrand0m> right, i don't expect to have a V1.0 final protocol spec next week.
|
|
last night I downloaded about 50 new articles off citeseer to do some more research
|
|
<nop> ok
|
|
<nop> so can we post your proposal to iip-dev
|
|
<nop> and get some review
|
|
<jrand0m> coo'
|
|
<nop> also I advise on your own to propose it on cryptography@metzdowd.com
|
|
<nop> which will get some serious review
|
|
<jrand0m> sounds good
|
|
<nop> ok
|
|
<nop> UserX, you there
|
|
<UserX> i'm here
|
|
<nop> ok, so jrand0m will work on protocol spec, and can I assume you'll come
|
|
up with a concerns list or some additives to the protocol?
|
|
<UserX> yes
|
|
<nop> ok, let's resume this in a week
|
|
<nop> what was 5?
|
|
<nop> sorry If I'm being a pain
|
|
<nop> just want to organize it
|
|
<nop> to make sure we're all on same page
|
|
<jrand0m> recruiting for services...?
|
|
<hezekiah> 5) Recruiting for services to aid with IIP
|
|
<nop> ok
|
|
<nop> yes
|
|
<nop> since mids departure
|
|
<nop> and cohesions return
|
|
<nop> we are possibly looking for others to contribute to IIP in some aspect
|
|
<nop> this does not mean you have to be a hardcore core developer
|
|
<nop> but additives like maybe a web maintainer would be good,
|
|
<nop> some PR would be good
|
|
<hezekiah> luckypunk volunteered to manage the website.
|
|
<hezekiah> <luckypunk> I wanna help/take over the IIP website.
|
|
<hezekiah> <luckypunk> :D
|
|
<nop> and if more people would like to hop on with the upcoming project that
|
|
jrand0m is proposing
|
|
<jrand0m> wikked
|
|
<nop> even if you just want to review the protocol
|
|
<nop> that is more than enough help
|
|
<nop> the reality is this
|
|
<nop> we have a lot of developers with real time jobs
|
|
<nop> and it is consuming them at the moment
|
|
<nop> and any additional help is wanted
|
|
<nop> since this is a huge endeavor
|
|
<nop> to take IIP to where it needs to be
|
|
<nop> aka InvisibleNet at some point
|
|
<nop> real life jobs ;)
|
|
<nop> anyway
|
|
<nop> the idea is
|
|
<nop> it would be cool if people would love to add to this project in some ways
|
|
<nop> using their skills, and I know their are some programmers out there
|
|
<nop> and a few that have some spare tiem
|
|
<nop> time
|
|
<nop> luckypunk's reliability will have to be reviewed, no offense, I've had
|
|
him offer before with help maintaining a freesite, and no luck there
|
|
<hezekiah> nop: I can understand that one. ;-)
|
|
<hezekiah> nop: He just asked me to forward the offer along because he
|
|
wouldn't be here.
|
|
<nop> ok
|
|
<hezekiah> nop: I did. My part's done. :)
|
|
<nop> well, either way, anyone who wants to join in
|
|
<nop> contact one of us
|
|
<nop> either at iip@invisiblenet.net
|
|
<hezekiah> One of whom?
|
|
<nop> or just by nick,
|
|
<nop> hezekiah, userx, nop,
|
|
<jrand0m> I hear anyone who volutneers to help iip gets free hookers and blow
|
|
<hezekiah> What are 'hookers and blow'?
|
|
<hezekiah> ... or do I not want to know?
|
|
<jrand0m> heh
|
|
<nop> hezekiah: don't ask
|
|
<hezekiah> OK.
|
|
<hezekiah> I don't want to know. :)
|
|
<nop> hezekiah: enjoy your sheltered life ;)
|
|
<nop> while you can
|
|
<nop> cuz college is gonna be fun :)
|
|
<hezekiah> I'm enjoying it! I'm enjoying it!
|
|
* jrand0m enjoys the hookers and blow ;)
|
|
<nop> jrand0m: quick question
|
|
* w hugs luckypunk and nop
|
|
<jrand0m> si sr?
|
|
<nop> jrand0m: are you considering yourself a dev of IIP at some time soon?
|
|
<nop> since you are offering a merge ;)
|
|
<hifi>
|
|
http://www.guerrillanews.com/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=gnn&Number=182767&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&part=
|
|
<hifi> sorry , opps again
|
|
<jrand0m> nop> a dev of invisiblenet, but I can't contribute to iip
|
|
<nop> understood
|
|
<nop> IIP == invisiblenet future projects
|
|
<hezekiah> jrand0m: Good working!
|
|
<hezekiah> jrand0m: Wording.
|
|
<nop> devs wanted for either
|
|
<nop> to make that clear
|
|
<nop> specifically cuz jrand0m could use a good team set
|
|
<Addic> I could take a look of the Windows code...
|
|
<jrand0m> si sr. once we get rolling into software design, there's going
|
|
to be more truckloads of work than one can imagine
|
|
<jrand0m> word Addic
|
|
<nop> awesome
|
|
<nop> ok
|
|
<nop> I will send this request on iip-dev line as well
|
|
<nop> anyone interested please don't hesitate to contact
|
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<nop> was there a 6?
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<nop> I believe so
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<jrand0m> 6) comments suggestions and people who want to help
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<jrand0m> suggestion: < 1.8 hours next time :)
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<jrand0m> (not that any of the topics could have been condensed any more
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than they were)
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<nop> no comments?
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* nop thinks everyone's asleep
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<nop> hehe
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<nop> we bored them
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<jrand0m> w3wt
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<Addic> heh, who has been working on the Windows' code this far?
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<nop> ok
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<hifi> zzzzzz...
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<nop> UserX has made it so far portable
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<Rain> What kind of talents are we looking for?
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<Addic> ok
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<nop> ok, let me re-iterate
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<nop> Coders, Graphics dudes, Web devs, PR people, Web maintainers
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<Rain> Ok, missed that. Sry.
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<nop> and if you can write biz plans, that helps me too :)
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<nop> you didn't miss
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<nop> I didn't go in enough detail
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<jrand0m> heh
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<hifi> I am Born PR people
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<Rain> Step one: Collect Underpants.
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<Addic> translating to other languages at wiki?
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<nop> yes
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<nop> that would be great
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<nop> translations
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<Addic> ok, i could do that too
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<nop> documentation
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<nop> etc
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<nop> even organization
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<nop> anyone who wants to be actively involved in helping InvisibelNet/IIP
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<hifi> I invite ppl to use IIP alll the time
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<nop> thnx hifi
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<Rain> What kind of org skills?
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<nop> well, maybe help run the meetings, or maybe forcing us dev guys to get
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more docs on the protocol
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<nop> etc
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<nop> possibly organize interviews and some type of press releases
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<nop> some ideas for the future of promoting the use of IIP
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<nop> etc
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<nop> ok, please contact one of us if you want to help out
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<Rain> Ok, org question, that I have mentioned before: IIP Signing key? (nag, nag)
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<hifi> IIP notification service :) for ppl to knoe I /him is online LOL
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<qriff> just as a question for the qurious... what defines the holder for "Trent"...
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<qriff> and what about channel/nick expiration...
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<qriff> registration that is...
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<jrand0m> trent is a service, not a nick, so trent must have access to the
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ircd (i think)
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<nop> these questions are mids questions for trent, he's an abstract piece
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<nop> yes jrand0m
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<jrand0m> iip notification would be cool. how does anonymail do it?
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<jrand0m> can clients send a /notify nick to the server and get a msg when
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the nick joins?
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<hifi> IIP SMS notification LOL
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<nop> actually
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<nop> we did have IIP SMS as the first version of anonymail
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<nop> but it tended to flood
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<hifi> oh
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<nop> so now we do it as anonymail database delivery
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<hifi> IIP invitation msg as signature to ordinary e-mails ...
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<hifi> Kinda " Do yo Yahoo ? Get MSN free " stuff
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<jrand0m> ooOOoo textAds
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<jrand0m> but does iip need more users?
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<hifi> oh
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<jrand0m> or is getting more users just a "oh cool, lets service more people"?
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<hifi> no
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<hifi> dunno
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<hifi> i just brainstorm
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<hezekiah> More people ... more ideas ... more volunteers
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<hifi> IIP as world standart will be cool
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<hezekiah> More people ... more problems ... more strain on the network ...
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<hezekiah> ... more floods of #anonymous ...
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<hezekiah> It's a two sided question.
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<hifi> more channels lol
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<hifi> IIP Eugenics Program LOL Less Population Less Problems
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<Addic> hmm... going back to the notification question... is it so the /notify
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nick does not work here? Or am I not understanding the question...
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<lonelynerd> Addic: sure it works
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<Addic> well what's the problem then?
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<hifi> ?
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<lonelynerd> wasn't much following the conversation, but they talked about
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having a /notify that wouldn't require the client to poll
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<Addic> ok
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<hezekiah> Hmmm ...
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<hezekiah> I think it's about time we adjurne this meeting.
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<hezekiah> What do you say, nop?
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* jrand0m thinks he fell asleep too
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<nop> yeah
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<nop> ok
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<nop> later
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<hezekiah> Meeting adjurned! :)
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<hezekiah> *BAF*!
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