I2P_Website/i2p2www/meetings/logs/239.log

19:59:41  <zzz> 0) Hi
19:59:41  <zzz> 1) 32C3 Budget
19:59:41  <zzz> 2) Other 32C3 todo items - banner, etc.
19:59:41  <zzz> 3) RWC Budget
19:59:44  <zzz> 0) Hi
19:59:47  <zzz> Hi
19:59:50  <eche|on> hi
19:59:53  <dg> hi
19:59:59  <zzz> 1) 32C3 Budget
19:59:59  <cacapo> hi
20:00:23  <zzz> ok, the plan is to do what we did for Toronto, which is to set an overall budget and let echelon handle the details
20:00:43  <hottuna2> i love soylent and you
20:00:46  <hottuna2> oups
20:00:47  <zzz> echelon, what's the total of the travel requests for funds that you got
20:01:06  <eche|on> currently it is roughly 4k and 2 BTC
20:01:56  <hottuna2> as calculated how?
20:02:03  <zzz> ok, were there any excessive requests or request from any randoms that we need to discuss, or was everything reasonable?
20:02:41  <eche|on> all reasonable, non above 1k euro so far, so... all fine
20:02:52  <eche|on> some did wrote too much information, haha
20:03:22  <zzz> and about how much more to pay for CCC tickets, a dinner, gummy snakes and such?
20:04:06  <eche|on> I think dinner will be 500€+x, tickets will be 100€ each (at 10 ppl roughly) and snakes and small stuff in the 200-300€
20:04:24  <eche|on> dinner for 20+x
20:05:04  <zzz> so that's 1800 euros + 4K travel + ~500 for 2 BTC is 6300 euros total, right?
20:05:53  <eche|on> yeah, but we will not scratch up to that, IMHO some of the travel fund will be payed in BTC, and dinner could be cheaper...
20:05:59  <eche|on> so lets say 6k
20:06:34  <eche|on> last year we did have had 1257€ without travel costs
20:06:38  <zzz> that sounds pretty reasonable to me, let's throw it open to discussion... what do people think?
20:06:39  <eche|on> and a few tickets
20:07:13  <hottuna2> does that mean we'll be reaching our 10% spending goal per year?
20:07:31  <eche|on> sure
20:07:53  <hottuna2> as in we'll be below 10%?
20:08:01  <zzz> doubt it, we have ~250K and we only spent 4-5K on toronto iirc
20:08:02  <eche|on> sure
20:08:22  <eche|on> wait, 150k, not 250...
20:08:49  <zzz> either way, we're well under 10%, back of the envelope
20:09:02  <eche|on> and currently we spent 5.3k this year
20:09:19  <hottuna2> ok. i'm happy with that.
20:09:22  <zzz> any objections to a 6K Euro budget for CCC?
20:10:05  <zzz> great
20:10:41  <zzz> as always eche|on I think we prefer to reimburse people, but we can pay in advance if people really need it to buy tickets, right?
20:11:25  <hottuna2> is there a way to know how much you'll be reimbursed for?
20:11:25  <eche|on> correct
20:11:44  <zzz> I think we just approved 100% of people's requests, correct?
20:11:49  <eche|on> yes
20:12:05  <zzz> ok, so whatever you asked for is what you'll get hottuna2
20:12:13  <hottuna2> ok
20:12:23  <zzz> thank you very much eche|on I think this process worked well
20:12:27  <zzz> anything else on 1) ?
20:12:53  <zzz> 2) Other 32C3 todo items - banner, etc.
20:13:05  <eche|on> banner is still in toronto
20:13:10  <eche|on> poster - we need a poster
20:13:28  <zzz> DECT phones part 2? banner? poster? what needs to be done, any volunteers?
20:13:35  <eche|on> we need a table (I try to get into wiki and make some page about our group)
20:13:45  <hottuna2> who has the banner?
20:13:57  <hottuna2> I do not have it.
20:13:57  <str4d> j0
20:13:58  <eche|on> it was at toronto hacklab
20:14:13  <hottuna2> should I bring the podium graphic from i2pcon?
20:14:40  <zzz> hottuna2, can you be in charge of finding the banner in Toronto and bringing it?
20:14:53  <eche|on> DECT phones could be done, but I do not know, everyone has a mobile, Wifi available...
20:15:13  <zzz> maybe twitter DM has rendered DECT obsolete
20:15:15  <hottuna2> zzz, will do.
20:15:19  <eche|on> hottuna2: there was a twitter discussion with sadie about the banner and let her bring it to hamburg
20:15:23  <dg> i'm just going to twitter
20:15:41  <dg> irc if no response
20:15:50  <hottuna2> do we need any other marketing type of material?
20:15:50  <eche|on> table needs to be reserved asap
20:15:59  <eche|on> stickers
20:16:06  <zzz> eche|on, you volunteered to reserve the table?
20:16:28  <eche|on> a folder (3 columns, folded) with basic informations would really help, but not available
20:16:44  <eche|on> zzz: I can try to reserve the table on 26th ahead of cinema
20:16:56  <eche|on> or better: I try my best to reserve it
20:17:00  <dg> usual place, or?
20:17:10  <eche|on> dg: would be best, noisysquare
20:17:11  <zzz> yeah, but you volunteered to sign up on the wiki, right echelon?
20:17:13  <dg> just a question: how big is the table usually?
20:17:24  <eche|on> yeah, I try to do the wiki, also
20:17:28  <zzz> 8-10
20:17:30  <cacapo> eche|on: didn't we have a folder contest a while back
20:17:31  <dg> eche|on: ah good
20:17:32  <hottuna2> Sadie says Hi from twitter
20:17:36  <dg> zzz: so room for everyone?
20:17:38  <eche|on> the table is mostly a round table for 8-10, or a square table
20:17:51  <dg> hottuna2: she needs2irc
20:17:56  <zzz> we're never all there at the same time, not to worry
20:17:58  <eche|on> cacapo: yeah, but the results of fodler contest were not useable AFAIR
20:18:03  <hottuna2> that's what I'm telling her
20:18:20  <dg> alright :)
20:18:34  <zzz> there was also the idea of USB stick giveaways, I looked into it, looks like $2 in bulk for small-capacity
20:18:41  <dg> i'm waiting for schedule so i can plan my day
20:18:42  <eche|on> http://echelon.i2p/29c3/
20:18:46  <iRelay> Title: 29C3 I2P contest (at echelon.i2p)
20:18:51  <dg> know when to duck in/out
20:19:29  <eche|on> dg: usual we meet in 10-12am and leave after 1am...
20:19:47  <zzz> so re: poster, who is looking into that?
20:19:48  <eche|on> zzz: the USB sticks are nice
20:20:03  <eche|on> but I do not know if really useful
20:20:13  <hottuna2> so the 2015 wiki for 32c3 does not appear to be open yet
20:20:28  <eche|on> hottuna2: correct
20:20:36  <dg> eche|on: past my bedtime ;) fits my lie ins
20:20:43  <zzz> I'm not humping hundreds of USBs across the ocean. Dunno if too late to get logo'ed ones
20:20:46  <dg> is the CCH open all night?
20:20:58  <eche|on> dg: CCH is open 24/7
20:21:08  <zzz> let's defer talk about CCC basics and logistics for now
20:21:20  <dg> ok, thx eche|on
20:21:22  <zzz> this agenda item is for prep only
20:21:36  <eche|on> zzz: 2 weeks time on one sender
20:22:07  <zzz> anybody want to volunteer for a poster or for USB sticks?
20:22:29  <zzz> and what was the answer on stickers?
20:22:32  <eche|on> but a USB stick/card is around 4-6€ eeach
20:22:48  <zzz> I saw them for about $2 on ebay
20:22:58  <hottuna2> i'm not sure i'm I understand the idea behind the usb sticks
20:23:08  <zzz> but those weren't customized I dont think
20:23:15  <dg> would we bundle i2p, just put our logo on it, or...?
20:23:22  <zzz> both
20:23:44  <hottuna2> not sure I feel that's a good use of money. if we were tails it would've been a different story
20:24:41  <eche|on> I am not really a fan of USB in this pricy area, as we would need 100+x, thats at least 500€
20:24:45  <eche|on> for printed ones
20:24:47  <zzz> ok
20:24:51  <eche|on> with a less use
20:25:10  <zzz> so lets skip the USB sticks. What about stickers? How's the supply over there? Did you bring them all over here or?
20:25:17  <str4d> hottuna2: we don't even need to give aaway the USBs
20:25:24  <eche|on> I still got stickers left
20:25:42  <comradenosebleed> zzz: i have a bunch of stickers that tuna gave me as well, i don't mind bringing them with me
20:25:44  <str4d> If they are decent enough, could sell at cost
20:25:45  <eche|on> but some of the toronto connections wanted to create a new design AFAIK.
20:25:55  <comradenosebleed> (sorry tuna, i'm trying to give out as many as i can)
20:26:05  <dg> i might have some stickers
20:26:11  <eche|on> str4d: I do not like to sell and handle some money beside my debit card on CCC
20:26:16  <zzz> eche|on, you have enough for CCC or you need comradenosebleed to bring some?
20:26:30  <hottuna2> do we want to get some more t-shirts
20:26:40  <eche|on> I got enough for CCC, but thats my last I got
20:26:53  <comradenosebleed> i probably have 200 or so sitting on my desk, i have no problems bringing them with me
20:27:07  <eche|on> so I need a new design, or I get another 10k with the same design
20:27:13  <hottuna2> and a separate question, do we want to sell them?
20:27:23  <hottuna2> eche|on: I would like to get a new design made
20:27:33  <hottuna2> before new stickers are ordered
20:27:36  <zzz> let's defer buying more stickers for now if we have enough for CCC and there's potential for a new design
20:27:44  <eche|on> right
20:27:51  <zzz> no, I don't think we should sell them
20:27:53  <dg> will bring some anyway
20:28:02  <hottuna2> zzz, agreed.
20:28:12  <str4d> no one sells stickers at cons :P
20:28:21  <str4d> The advertizing alone covers it
20:28:22  <hottuna2> still, do we want to get more t-shirts?
20:28:43  <eche|on> hottuna2: we can ask in zzz.i2p for visitors (i2p team) needing/wanting a shirt. at least dg and str4d need them
20:28:46  <str4d> (oh wait, t-shirts, nvm)
20:28:46  <eche|on> yes
20:28:56  <zzz> I say no to t-shirts. too much of a hassle to sell, and pretty much everybody has one, right?
20:29:05  <str4d> I don't
20:29:11  <str4d> I won't be at CCC tho
20:29:13  <eche|on> and postman postman !??
20:29:20  <eche|on> oh, sry...
20:29:20  <dg> postman is joining us btw :)
20:29:29  <zzz> for the one-offs, they can buy it on spreadshirt
20:29:40  <zzz> if they want
20:30:04  <str4d> That was my plan :)
20:30:19  <zzz> what was the answer on the poster? Maybe tuna and sadie will do something, maybe not?
20:30:22  <dg> will get one too, no need to order more for the project
20:30:37  <zzz> is the timothy leary poster still around?
20:31:27  <hottuna2> zzz, so no t-shirt for dg or postman?
20:31:37  <hottuna2> I don't mind ordering/bringing them.
20:31:40  <postman> hey, i would take one
20:31:49  <eche|on> http://echelon.i2p/29c3/user5/poster/final_with_garlic.jpg
20:32:03  <eche|on> zzz: that one?
20:32:06  <dg> I'd like a yellow one if you've got one but I'll order it myself if not
20:32:43  <hottuna2> dg, postman what sizes are you?
20:32:45  <zzz> sounds like it's between tuna and postman and dg to figure out t-shirts, whether tuna orders them or the others just order their own
20:32:56  <eche|on> t-shirt costs can be refunded on 32C3 for team members
20:33:03  <dg> yeah sorry we'll leave it for later :)
20:33:26  <zzz> ok, so the project will reimburse for t-shirts for those that don't have them
20:33:34  <zzz> any objections to that?
20:33:41  <eche|on> we did pay the other shirts already
20:33:48  <zzz> yup
20:34:31  <zzz> ok, sounds like we don't have a poster answer atm, but no big deal if we don't get one
20:34:31  <eche|on> date for dinner pre-announce?
20:34:32  <hottuna2> no
20:34:32  <hottuna2> that's how it's been done previously
20:34:39  <zzz> yes eche|on that's the leary poster
20:35:09  <zzz> eche|on, you have a proposal for which nite for dinner?
20:35:42  <eche|on> hmm, 27th is a bit early, but still fine. 28th or 29th are fine, too. But I need to wait for talk schedule
20:36:03  <zzz> ok, maybe let's pencil in 28th, subject to change
20:36:08  <zzz> anything else on 2) ?
20:36:09  <eche|on> We can do the 27th, it´s sunday, first evening, all are jet-lagged, no one wants beer, cheap^^
20:36:49  <zzz> last call for 2)
20:36:51  <dg> no thanks for 27th
20:37:20  <zzz> 3) RWC Budget
20:37:36  <zzz> eche|on, any requests for RWC funding? What's the total?
20:37:51  <eche|on> yeah, thats a bit non-anon, as I got one request of 500€ for hotel costs at RWC
20:38:20  <zzz> sounds reasonable, any objections?
20:38:25  <eche|on> no
20:38:30  <eche|on> if the paper is good, all fine^^
20:38:51  <eche|on> and it is 2016, new year, new 10% *g*
20:39:24  <zzz> I encourage anybody that can get to RWC to check it out, it's a good conference
20:39:35  <zzz> anything else on 3) ?
20:39:40  <eche|on> to far away from me
20:39:53  <eche|on> although interesting, sure
20:39:55  <dg> too far & incompatible w/ CCC
20:40:50  <zzz> ok, any other topics? I know i shot down i2pcontrol, 32c3 talk, and forum replacement over on the zzz.i2p thread, but if anybody wants to discuss _briefly_ speak up now
20:41:33  <hottuna2> yeah. i'd like to talk about forum.i2p
20:41:38  <hottuna2> do we want to replace it?
20:41:52  <dg> just wrt forum replacement, we're open to it and discussing it. if anyone thinks it's a good idea for us to do it, hit up postman/myself/eche|on. we're in a position to run one, but we dunno if there's much support
20:42:33  <zzz> I'll paste in my position from zzz.i2p, others may disagree, that's fine
20:42:35  <hottuna2> i think we should have a public facing place for discussions
20:42:54  <zzz> My consistent view has been that users will vote with their feet, let a thousand flowers bloom, etc. etc. It's not necessary or even wise for us to anoint a replacement. One or more are free to apply for placement on the console home page following our usual process. If somebody wants to set up a forum site, they should do so,
20:43:18  <hottuna2> I don't agree.
20:43:19  <dg> hottuna2: while I'm very open about a forum, what is not open about zzz.i2p? for the record it's unlikely a forum.i2p run by postman/echelon/myself will be on clearnet
20:43:43  <hottuna2> I think we should have a clearnet forum.
20:43:47  <zzz> zzz.i2p is not open to all topics
20:44:01  <hottuna2> interacting with i2p now is like interacting with a brick.
20:44:06  <zzz> forums get _hammered_ by spiders via inproxies
20:45:15  <zzz> and hammered by spam via inproxies
20:45:15  <hottuna2> there's the irc and zzz.i2p. that is it as far as public communications go with i2p
20:45:15  <hottuna2> how are we to attract people new to anonymity tools if we're not even available to these people?
20:45:15  <eche|on> zzz.i2p is dev talk, a user talk forum would be nice, but it cannot be run on clearnet
20:45:15  <zzz> I'd like to see more use of the blog on our website by the PR team
20:45:16  <hottuna2> I get that running a forum is highly inconvenient.
20:45:19  <eche|on> forum.i2p is currently a good forum, I keep it as clean as I like
20:45:36  <dg> administering one is fine, clearnet is going to be difficult. It's possible but...
20:45:38  <zzz> forum will be dead by year-end due to rekey
20:45:38  <hottuna2> but our blog does not support communication both ways. the lbog is just a broadcasting tool.
20:45:53  <dg> I see that clearnet would be helpful  for support though.
20:46:02  <hottuna2> so this is a relevant topic to try to deal with as soon as possible.
20:46:38  <zzz> anybody wants to run a (or "the") forum replacement? go for it, you don't need anybody's permission
20:46:42  <hottuna2> support and also attracting new developers. showing people the topics we are discussing is a way to attract developers and people of all skill-levels
20:46:50  <str4d> I don't see a simple way to add a blog without going beyond the near-static approach
20:47:19  <dg> the irc2p team is up for it, but I don't know how to handle the clearnet problem
20:47:21  <zzz> hottuna2, nobody's saying a forum isn't a good thing
20:47:47  <str4d> comment section to the*
20:47:53  <hottuna2> so we agree that having one would be helpful to us?
20:47:55  <eche|on> dg: forum.i2p was clearnet, it did not went out well, was closed and all is fine
20:48:09  <zzz> I declared forum.i2p dead back in January. There's been plenty of time.
20:48:16  <hottuna2> and we also agree that we want to reach out and attract newbies to join i2p?
20:48:23  <dg> eche|on: it would be helpful for user supports though
20:48:36  <hottuna2> having it be more than a vaporware goal requires action
20:48:37  <eche|on> dg: not worth the hassle
20:48:42  <zzz> hottuna2, agreed forums are good. Not sure if one of us needs to run one. And not sure I've heard anybody volunteering.
20:49:08  <dg> I don't care about handling the spam, I just want to remain anonymous and you can't do that while running a clearnet site
20:49:23  <eche|on> yes
20:50:46  <hottuna2> dg, could I or someone else rent the root server?
20:50:46  <eche|on> but really, you do not want the i2p forum clearnet
20:50:46  <hottuna2> and you have access to it through i2p+ssh?
20:50:46  <zzz> so perhaps dg as admin combined with some server resources could be a solution
20:50:46  <dg> hottuna2: That's something we can discuss if you (or someone else) is comfortable with the cost
20:50:46  <hottuna2> eche|on: I want the forum to be clearnet and on i2p
20:50:46  <eche|on> hottuna2: you will loose it.
20:50:46  <eche|on> forum.i2p has had massive spam issues
20:50:46  <dg> eche|on: I know clearnet can be a problem but a lot of users like it as a support mechanism
20:50:46  <dg> irc is not for everyone, especially where we have the "deep sleep chamber"
20:50:46  <eche|on> thats why it was closed down
20:50:46  <zzz> sure, clearnet a nice dream, maybe solveable, maybe not
20:50:50  <eche|on> forum.i2p is still a good support channel
20:50:54  <hottuna2> dg, i'm comfortable with that, and also think that i2p would re-imburse an forum server
20:51:24  <dg> happy to try it and if it doesn't work, we'll be i2p only. I don't know about i2p reimbursing it (not my decision though), but then again, i2p already reimburses core services...
20:51:25  <comradenosebleed> How many moderators were around on the forum while it was clearnet? If we had more mods we would be able to trim down on abuse, spam, etc.
20:51:35  <hottuna2> eche|on: eche|on: would i2p sponsor a forum machine?
20:51:35  <dg> comradenosebleed: afaik it was just eche|on
20:51:43  <eche|on> comradenosebleed: we did have had at least 5-10 people
20:51:49  <dg> hottuna2: I'm happy to admin in any case, just don't want to put a burden on you.
20:51:53  <eche|on> but a damned stupid guy spammed and did some DDOS
20:52:06  <hottuna2> dg, would you volunteer to set up and admin a clearner+hidden forum?
20:52:07  <zzz> dg maybe you can estimate bandwidth/processing power requirements and put together a proposal?
20:52:25  <dg> hottuna2, zzz: OK, i'll work with hottuna2 on that and we can figure out a proposal
20:52:36  <dg> hottuna2: as long as I can be anon still, no problem
20:52:38  <hottuna2> getting a quite powerful server from hertzner is about 30€/month
20:52:42  <zzz> I'm still not in favor but willing to listen
20:52:55  <zzz> we have spare VM's now but depends on load
20:53:02  <zzz> ok anything else on forum?
20:53:06  <zzz> anything else for the meeting?
20:53:11  <eche|on> also while being clearnet you cannot hsot a lot of topics which are right now in forum.i2p
20:53:11  * zzz warms up the baffer
20:53:28  <hottuna2> zzz, eche|on: re spare vms, do we want to place all of our infrastructure on the same host?
20:53:30  <eche|on> e.g. you will need a native russian guy for the forum to admin it
20:53:31  <comradenosebleed> I volunteer myself as a mod if we put up a clearnet forum. As much as I hate to suggest cloudflare to host it, they do have excellent ddos prevention
20:54:01  <hottuna2> comradenosebleed: noted
20:54:02  <eche|on> and tha tone would need to know the rules of the country the host is hosted in (hetzner is german, german has some strange laws, e.g.)
20:54:15  <zzz> you all feel free to continue the forum talk, however I... am...
20:54:23  <eche|on> baffing!
20:54:25  <zzz> .. *baffing* the meeting closed