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20:00:31 <zzz> 0) hi
20:00:38 <zzz> 1) website revamp (str4d)
20:00:55 <zzz> 2) console home page request for http://open4you.i2p/
20:01:03 <iRelay> Title: open4you.i2p (at open4you.i2p)
20:01:11 <zzz> 3) disable outproxy (topiltzin / dg)
20:01:20 <zzz> 4) netdb project update (hottuna)
20:01:23 <zzz> 0) hi
20:01:25 <zzz> hi
20:01:30 <dg> hi
20:01:35 <topiltzin> hi
20:01:42 <zzz> more info and links at http://zzz.i2p/topics/1460
20:01:55 <zzz> let's try something new and limit each agenda item to 15 minutes
20:02:00 <iRelay> Title: zzz.i2p: Meeting Tues. Sept. 10, 8 PM UTC (at zzz.i2p)
20:02:03 <zzz> 1) website revamp (str4d)
20:02:07 <zzz> go str4d
20:04:12 <zzz> skipping 1) for now
20:04:17 <zzz> 2) console home page request for http://open4you.i2p/
20:04:21 <iRelay> Title: open4you.i2p (at open4you.i2p)
20:04:28 <zzz> is the open4you requester here?
20:05:53 <zzz> skipping 2) for now
20:05:59 <zzz> 3) disable outproxy (topiltzin / dg)
20:06:05 <zzz> go dg or topiltzin
20:06:05 <dg> \o
20:06:13 <dg> I'll take it first.
20:06:50 <dg> Hi all, I've been mulling this over for some time: I think the outproxy for HTTP (and possibly HTTPS) being included by default isn't aligned with our goals;
20:07:25 <dg> most of the time, when asked on IRC about outproxying, community members recommend Tor and not to touch the outproxy for many/any uses
20:07:38 <dg> "we leave that to Tor" is something that's thrown around a lot
20:08:22 <dg> the outproxy is centralized which is obviously a big issue, there's problems with Tor having thousands of exit nodes even, let alone us having just one
20:08:43 <dg> security issues aside, it's a usability problem. What if someone trying to use I2P thinks I2P is just really slow because google.com loads slow? Oh, and it's in German? Huh?
20:09:14 <dg> We haven't built in the code for outproxying as a 'real' measure for a reason: we don't want to do it and hidden services are our target
20:09:58 <dg> I feel we're putting users at risk by inserting the outproxy by default and (possibly) confusing their perception of what I2P is and what it does.
20:10:04 <dg> iniial pitch over
20:10:17 <zzz> topiltzin, you have anything to add?
20:10:52 <topiltzin> that's a good list; I can also see KillYourTV 's point that the functionality should not be removed
20:11:22 <zzz> ok let's throw it open to comments from others
20:11:23 <topiltzin> but I strongly agree with dg that it's better to steer users away from using i2p for clearnet surfing
20:12:17 <dg> Someone (Pseudonemo) has suggested an explanation page as to why clearnet websites will not load and possibly a Tor recommendation.
20:12:19 <welterde> a plugin that outproxies via tor locally would be nice..
20:12:45 <dg> welterde: funny you say this.. jtor was introduced by ioerror to zzz a few weeks back.
20:13:26 <welterde> dg: yeah.. that's what I was thinking about.. should be much cleaner than having to rely on an external running component
20:13:52 <dg> So, thoughts?
20:13:54 <efkt> Usually the only time I observe topic of I2P's in discussion is answering questions like "Why doesnt it work like I want it to?" and supplying alternatives like Meeh's outproxy or just using Tor. Having the option for the outproxy is a good thing, and having users knowing that there is such an option is also nice.
20:13:56 <zzz> I'm against removing it - it's a limited feature, yes, but what it does it actually does pretty well. We won't improve the usability of it by disabling it. We'll just make things harder and more confusing.
20:14:45 <EpicCoffee> I think overall I agree with zzz (since my entrance)
20:14:58 <zzz> perhaps when we have a better solution (a tor plugin) then we could disable echelon;s by default
20:15:19 <trolly_> options are always good, and I use the outproxies a lot, I know of course not to trust outproxies communications
20:15:21 <dg> Why should we do something that we (mostly) acknowledge is something Tor is better for? It seems like we're letting down people by even trying, it's a false impression. A well designed explanation page could ease the confusion/hardness
20:15:46 <dg> I don't suggest we remove the capability, just the default
20:15:47 <zzz> sounds like dg is mainly describing a documentation / education problem, that won't be fixed by disabling it.
20:16:24 <topiltzin> it would not be fixed but would be avoided
20:16:31 <dg> I don't know why the user should be trusting a third party by installing I2P
20:16:36 <zzz> i2ptunnel is scary and I'd rather not have to point people in there to turn it on
20:16:36 <EpicCoffee> Some people do not use tor and will not use tor for various reasons. They can have use for an I2P outproxy.
20:17:12 <topiltzin> kytv's proposal to have a warning page that makes things clear would be a proper solution, no?
20:17:16 <trolly_> dg you are right, EpicCoffee too
20:17:26 <EpicCoffee> On rare occasions I use the outproxy, mostly to check out links sent in i2prc
20:17:42 <dg> I understand we can say "well, the user should read" or similar but.. should we let them shoot themselves in the foot so easily?
20:17:49 <trolly_> like me EpicCoffee
20:17:51 <zzz> to look at it another way, while it's on by default on the i2p side, it always takes affirmative action by the user to enable it in the browser. So you could say it is not on by default now, if you consider the browser too.
20:18:09 <EpicCoffee> If the link cannot be loaded through the outproxy, I am unlikely to load it through the clearnet.
20:18:32 <dg> it takes affirmative action to browse eepsites, it is still confusing. If someone is aware of the risks, they can add the outproxy.
20:18:37 *** trolly_ is now known as trolly
20:18:37 <dg> Or load the maybe-coming tor plugin
20:18:49 <EpicCoffee> I'm sure I'm not alone in this.
20:18:49 <EpicCoffee> lol
20:18:55 <zzz> does eche|on have an opinion?
20:19:03 <dg> This isn't an attack on echelon either but should we be trusting a single person with all outproxy traffic?
20:19:12 <dg> Regardless of who it is, it's a single point and a single person
20:19:37 <zzz> would you rather trust one person you somewhat know, or 3000 people you don't?
20:19:41 <dg> An assumption could easily be made that I2P is performing a tor like mechanism
20:19:57 <dg> 3000 people I don't
20:20:10 <zzz> coming up on the 15 minute mark. do we have any sort of consensus? anybody else that has a thought on this?
20:20:34 <welterde> imho we shouldn't disable it until we have the tor plugin
20:20:37 <Pseudonemo> I think dg is primarily arguing from the perspective of new users. They don't know eche|on.
20:20:51 <topiltzin> +1 Pseudonemo
20:20:59 <dg> *I* know eche|on, as a result, I don't mind the outproxy much but yes.
20:21:04 <dg> welterde: I can agree on this compromise.
20:21:21 <EpicCoffee> nobody should use an outproxy for anything sensitive. that should be a given lol.
20:21:22 <dg> Let's leave it there?
20:21:33 <topiltzin> assuming a tor plugin is in the works at all.. which it isn't
20:21:54 <zzz> ok, interesting topic, thanks for bringing it up dg. May be worth talking about again after a while, whether we have a tor plugin or not
20:21:59 <topiltzin> it is an education problem so it would be best to solve it through education
20:22:16 <dg> zzz: no problem, thank you.
20:22:39 <zzz> any volunteers to look at the education / documentation issue and propose some improvements?
20:22:42 <EpicCoffee> topiltzin: I don't think I would like a tor plugin in i2p. My opinion on that is I don't like/trust tor.
20:22:55 <dg> EpicCoffee: moved topic, save for next time :)
20:23:16 <zzz> last call for volunteers and then we are done with this topic
20:23:43 <zzz> ok then.
20:24:04 <zzz> skipping 4) as hottuna is not here
20:24:04 <zzz> lets circle back to 1), is str4d here?
20:24:45 <zzz> skipping 1) again
20:24:49 * EpicCoffee must be oblivious to the "list"
20:25:01 <dg> EpicCoffee: you weren't here for the start, will pm.
20:25:09 <zzz> 2) open4you.i2p, which we will discuss whether or not the requestor is here.
20:25:12 <EpicCoffee> ah thank you dg
20:25:13 <zzz> open4you are you here?
20:25:15 <topiltzin> EpicCoffee: channel is logged real-time http://killyourtv.i2p/irclogs/%23i2p-dev.2013-09-10.log
20:25:54 <zzz> the request is at the bottom of http://zzz.i2p/topics/1429
20:26:03 <iRelay> Title: zzz.i2p: 0.9.8 Release Summary (at zzz.i2p)
20:26:44 <zzz> as a refresher, since we haven't done this in a while, my personal guidelines are at http://zzz.i2p/topics/236
20:26:49 <iRelay> Title: zzz.i2p: How to get my Eepsite added to the Router Console home page (at zzz.i2p)
20:27:09 <zzz> has anybody used this site? Does anybody have any thoughts about putting it on the console?
20:27:30 <dg> If open4you doesn't turn up, can I propose one?
20:27:31 <dg> loading the guidelines now
20:27:36 <topiltzin> I like that the operator is upfront about what he can and cannot guarantee
20:28:08 *** trolly is now known as trolly_
20:28:14 <topiltzin> but besides that (positive) impression there isn't much to say...
20:28:15 <zzz> we are considering open4you only today, at least in item 2). If you like you can have a new item 5) dg
20:28:28 <EpicCoffee> I believe there should be available hosting on i2p, however I'm not sure I would trust a host lol. I'm conflicted on the hosting topic so I'll step aside on this one
20:28:29 <dg> zzz: ok, thx
20:28:42 <zzz> his TOS looks ok to me
20:29:03 <zzz> it's a new category not currently on the console so that's a plus
20:29:03 <dg> i know of no clients from open4you.i2p so I can't vouch for it but if the owner can turn up another time, I'm fine with discussing it again
20:29:56 <dg> no vouches makes me suspicious
20:30:24 <zzz> the recent FreedomHosting thing makes eepsite hosting interesting
20:31:13 <dg> I get the gist this is free, right?
20:31:19 <zzz> do we have any questions that the requestor must answer for us to make a decision? or can we make a decision today?
20:31:33 <zzz> I didnt see whether it was free or not. the faq is only in russian.
20:31:45 <topiltzin> it's free
20:31:45 <dg> If it's free, why not? There's no risk of a scam and it's definitely of 'interest'.
20:31:49 <dg> "9 months work free web hosting in i2p."
20:31:58 <dg> sorry guys, I was under the impression it was bitcoin
20:32:19 <topiltzin> still, we have no idea if it actually works
20:32:46 <dg> Should we bite the bullet and find a volunteer to test it at some point from now to the release?
20:32:55 <dg> If it doesn't work, we pull it
20:33:15 <zzz> I'm inclined to say yes now. I don't know what one person testing it would prove. We can always pull it later.
20:33:33 <dg> well, testing it at least works. There's not much else we can test.
20:33:39 <zzz> I would hope people are at least vaguely aware of the trust issues involved in hosting
20:33:41 <dg> yeah, I'm also a yes.
20:34:10 <zzz> there's no reason it shouldn't work. For one, I dont see any evidence of an automated process.
20:34:12 <dg> Any other votes?
20:34:26 <dg> it seems to be email drivne
20:34:28 <dg> driven
20:34:43 <zzz> last call for opinions / objections
20:34:57 <topiltzin> by works I mean whether the operator will actually do what he says he will do
20:35:14 <psi> do we have any testimonies from users on open4you?
20:35:22 <topiltzin> as opposed to set up an eepsite and abandon it
20:35:24 <dg> no
20:35:28 <topiltzin> psi: none, that's the problem
20:35:31 <dg> topiltzin: if that happens, we can remove it.
20:35:39 <dg> the owner is at least somewhat active as he requested
20:35:48 <dg> I'm for it.
20:35:53 <psi> yeah, i'd say not to go ahead with endorsement , first we get a test user in
20:35:56 <zzz> my guess is he has almost no business so far. Let's give him a trial period of a couple of I2P releases with it in the console, and if its bogus then we pull it
20:36:09 <psi> or... if we endorse put a big fat warning on it
20:36:10 <dg> zzz: +1
20:36:27 <psi> hmm
20:36:33 <psi> zzz has a good point
20:36:42 <psi> but... still
20:36:49 <dg> psi: it is free
20:36:56 <zzz> psi pls clarify are you objecting or not
20:36:56 <topiltzin> I'll email him the next few days
20:36:58 <psi> oh? it is?
20:37:04 <dg> yes
20:37:08 <psi> i am voicing caution
20:37:13 <psi> no objection
20:37:16 <topiltzin> I guess I might as well put zab.i2p back up
20:37:22 <dg> I thought it was bitcoin but it isn't
20:37:25 <dg> It's free so.. I don't care much about testimonies yet
20:37:30 <dg> :)
20:37:40 <dg> topiltzin: You for or against?
20:37:52 <topiltzin> abstaining
20:38:00 <zzz> sounds like we have no objections and it's approved? if I'm wrong please speak up
20:38:01 <topiltzin> I will test his hosting the next few days though
20:38:05 <dg> 2 for, 0 against
20:38:12 <psi> abstain
20:38:19 <welterde> abstain
20:38:26 <EpicCoffee> im curious how files are transferred to open4you hosting account
20:38:47 <dg> EpicCoffee: ftp (huh?) or via a control panel it seems.
20:39:07 <psi> sftp?
20:39:18 <zzz> ok I'll email him to get a logo and check the stuff into the console. Any of you so inclined, please sign up and report back
20:39:34 <zzz> if it's bogus or doesnt work, we can always pull it just before the release.
20:39:35 <dg> "1 GB of available space, php5, mysql, ftp access, 3 tunnel \ 2 hop"
20:39:40 <dg> +1
20:39:48 <welterde> psi: doubt it..
20:40:01 <zzz> and that ends item 2)
20:40:18 <zzz> no sign of hottuna or str4d so we're on to 5) dg's request
20:40:20 <zzz> dg go
20:40:29 <welterde> although it should work better over i2p (you know.. passive/active mode and so for ftp..)
20:41:36 <dg> I propose http://salt.i2p/ (not my site, efkt's) for inclusion in the router console. salt.i2p contains; a helpful, large wiki of eepsites and guides; xmpp; an IRC channel which is probably most active one on IRC2p
20:41:51 <iRelay> Title: salted (at salt.i2p)
20:42:00 <dg> It provides a lot of eepsite 'starting points' and is SFW.
20:42:02 <EpicCoffee> ill say +1 for salt
20:42:07 <EpicCoffee> I like the salt wiki
20:42:16 <topiltzin> yep, #salt pwnz +1
20:42:18 <dg> salt has grown to be a great resource for me and others in the community
20:42:28 <dg> the channel is #salt ftr
20:42:52 <zzz> we really can only take requests from the eepsite owner. Could you ask him to apply following the guidelines on http://zzz.i2p/topics/236 ? then we can consider it for 0.9.9
20:42:54 <welterde> +1.. pretty much what that old wiki used to be now..
20:43:06 <iRelay> Title: zzz.i2p: How to get my Eepsite added to the Router Console home page (at zzz.i2p)
20:43:33 <zzz> I'm not familiar with the site
20:43:55 <zzz> I don't think we want to start adding sites w/o permission
20:44:14 <dg> He was active not long ago, he may shoot up in a second
20:44:23 <dg> I agree with not adding w/o permission
20:44:34 <dg> figured it was worth a shot though
20:44:43 <zzz> paging efkt
20:44:49 <efkt> You have my permission as long as everyone's happy with it. I created the site with some of I2P's possible policies and ideas in mind about what content is appropriate for I2P. Im open to discussion if you don't like some of what might be there (Just saying)
20:44:53 <EpicCoffee> efkt is the owner of salt? I presume such based on observations.
20:44:59 <dg> Yes, EpicCoffee.
20:45:10 <efkt> Thus the disclaimer on the front page, explicit policies about gore/pr0n/etc
20:45:43 <efkt> The wiki is not open to edit unless we end up knowing you, so it is unlikely to be vandalized.
20:46:03 * EpicCoffee also points out the salt xmpp
20:46:17 <dg> the XMPP is popular too and comes with guides. :)
20:46:50 <topiltzin> yeah salt is pretty damn great.. has a real community feel to it
20:46:59 <zzz> if you want to do it right now please answer the following questions. If it's too much to do now we can discuss in about 6 weeks before the next release
20:47:00 <EpicCoffee> so long as users of it realize the admins can see what is said if not encrypted (I think the wiki article on it highly encourages otr)
20:47:06 <efkt> We have enough XMPP servers floating around that in the future it might not be a bad idea to list a few in the console. Most of us running servers have S2S happening.
20:47:07 <zzz> - An email address
20:47:07 <zzz> - The URL to link to
20:47:07 <zzz> - The URL of your English terms of service if available or necessary
20:47:07 <zzz> - If the site is not in English, a brief description of the site in English
20:47:07 <zzz> - (Optional) A URL to a transparent png icon to display. Size must be 32x32 (subject to change). If no icon is provided the icon will be "toopie". We will copy this icon into the router console source and serve it locally.
20:47:10 <zzz> - If an icon is provided, the license of the image.
20:47:12 <zzz> - (Optional) A one or two-word label in English. If not provided we will use example.i2p
20:47:14 <zzz> - (Optional) a few words or a sentence in English for a popup (tooltip)
20:48:19 <efkt> efkt@mail.i2p
20:48:23 <efkt> site: http://salt.i2p
20:48:27 <iRelay> Title: salted (at salt.i2p)
20:48:38 <efkt> site terms of service - Theres a disclaimer on the front page: http://salt.i2p
20:48:43 <iRelay> Title: salted (at salt.i2p)
20:49:15 <efkt> I dont have a 32x32 icon to provide speedily but it would be the same as our favicon, a black star with transparent or white background
20:49:47 <efkt> label name can be simply "salt"
20:49:59 <EpicCoffee> efkt I can make a quick 32x32 icon if you want. well as quick as i2p will allow lol
20:50:25 <zzz> we can give you a week for the icon :)
20:50:32 <zzz> how long has the site been up?
20:50:34 <efkt> EpicCoffee: If you like. Its just like the favicon - the black "anarchist star", you see the same kind of shape all over google images. It takes only a moment really
20:50:40 <efkt> zzz: august 2012, IIRC
20:51:21 <dg> http://salt.i2p/wiki/index.php/Main_Page#Tutorials
20:51:21 <efkt> Honestly, I'm very surprised I get so many users unable to reach the site as its not part of the default addressbook (or the XMPP) - Yet we get a lot of newcomers being directed there through IRC. Sorry to step off topic.
20:51:35 <iRelay> Title: Salted Wiki (at salt.i2p)
20:51:41 <efkt> zzz: Oh, and the blurb "Cryptomunitions and tutorials'
20:51:46 <dg> Yeah, it's a problem (in addition to the annoying addressbook-not-found bug) when introducing users.
20:52:20 <zzz> anybody on the console home page is automatically added to the default address book
20:52:42 <efkt> Oh. That will be helpful for anyone who is new to I2P coming to IRC2P to explore.
20:52:52 <efkt> one headache solved :)
20:52:59 <dg> 1/2.
20:53:05 <dg> no xmpp.salt.i2p ;)
20:53:32 <zzz> efkt to me your terms of service are insufficient for a wiki that we would recommend, as it describes only what you are not responsible for. It does not say what type of content if any is disallowed.
20:54:03 <zzz> If anything goes then I cannot support the request.
20:54:04 <efkt> zzz: Even though noone is allowed to edit the wiki, at all, unless I have personally vetted them and given them an account?
20:54:19 <dg> efkt: I believe he's saying the actual rules are unclear. pr0n, etc.
20:54:41 <efkt> Hrm.
20:54:53 <zzz> there are no rules stated at all.
20:54:56 <dbowie> 32X32 blackstar.jpg, base64 encoded: http://pastethis.i2p/show/5437/
20:54:57 <iRelay> Title: Paste #5437 | LodgeIt! (at pastethis.i2p)
20:55:00 <zzz> wrt allowed content
20:55:54 <efkt> I can easily add something. It's not a problem, only mulling over what "extra" things to add - Content such as Gore, Rape, Torture, Snuff, or weird sex will never be allowed on the site
20:56:23 <dg> so, family friendly - safe for work etc?
20:56:53 <zzz> I don't think we should ask you to draft a content ToS in the next 30 seconds. Want to think about it and come back in a few weeks?
20:57:06 <efkt> At this time no I cannot say salt is family friendly or safe for work. The onionland page explicitly links to drug onions.
20:57:43 <efkt> zzz: Yes, I'd like that at least - Id rather work with everyone and produce something desirable that's useful to I2P
20:59:22 <EpicCoffee> EpicCoffee: any image hosts on i2p?
20:59:24 <zzz> my philosophy is that anything similar to postman's tracker rules are acceptable.
20:59:24 <zzz> I don't want to tell you how to run your site or how to write your rules. You do what you like and then we'll decide if we want it in the console.
20:59:24 <zzz> but you can survey the links we have now and get a feel
21:00:36 <zzz> we're past 15 minutes so can we ask you to come back in a few weeks? Any site that has that much support from the folks here I think would be a good addition to the console, if you can work out the ToS stuff.
21:01:36 <efkt> I'm happy to work out a ToS, and to talk about anything on the site the community feels doesn't belong. Thanks zzz. Yes that's fine
21:02:13 <zzz> great. glad to hear about a new site I wasn't familiar with. I'll check it out. email me or post on zzz.i2p when you pull it all together
21:02:19 <zzz> and that's the end of 5)
21:02:25 <zzz> last call for str4d for 1)
21:02:36 <zzz> hottuna still not here for 4)
21:02:47 * zzz warms up the baffer
21:03:50 * zzz *bafs* the meeting closed
21:07:16 <zzz> thanks everybody, good meeting

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I2P dev meeting, September 10, 2013 @ 20:00 UTC
===============================================
Quick recap
-----------
* **Present:**
dbowie,
dg,
efkt,
EpicCoffee,
Pseudonemo,
psi,
topiltzin,
trolly,
welterde,
zzz